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jeffw_00
Advanced Member
896 Posts |
 Posted - 11/06/2009 : 10:15:37 AM
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On one hand, I laud SH for trying to show how Insteon can be used with other products to improve home automation. I just wonder if they've put sufficient thought into their kits. For example:
1) the garage door kit shows use of a magnetic contact at the bottom of your garage door. My garage door has a rubber bottom and the floor is a concrete slab. The rubber is a bit worn so rain gets under it (and of course snow packs under it in the winter). I'm not sure how one could achieve a good installation in these conditions. I suppose there might be a way to set the sensor up alongside the door (since it can have a 2" gap), but I suspect the metal tracks and runners would cause problems. A wireless tilt-sensor on the door would probably do a much better job. (take the motion sensor design, replace the motion sensor with a mercury switch).
2) They have a doorbell/phone alert kit, but don't provide, or discuss, connecting it to remote chimes to allow you to hear an alert
all over your house. They have a separate remote doorbell kit, but the remote chime that they use only has one tone. If you could get it to make a few different tones, you could use it to tell you if it was your phone, or doorbell, or something else that needed your attention.
i hope that if these kits sell, they put some effort into optimizing them, and if they don't, they realize the weakness and put some effort into optimizing them 8-} (and maybe even reducing cost. Spreading remote chimes all over my house at $92 a shot seems a pricey replacement for the $20 X-10 chime).
just some (hopefully) constructive thoughts
/j
Ps to TF - I already know that you disagree with me, no need to post 8-} |
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Xpendable
Advanced Member
USA
581 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 11:48:55 AM
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I actually have the garage door kit here:
http://www.smarthome.com/74551/I-O-Linc-INSTEON-Garage-Door-Control-Status-Kit/p.aspx
This is not your normal door contact closer. It's a big beefy steel thing with an armored cable. It's designed so the sensor part is mounted to the concrete floor within in inch of the garage door, and the metal with the magnent gets attached to the door. You car can run over it without damaging it. Note that NOTHING gets attached to the bottom surface of the garage door where the rubber is. It just gets attached to the face of the door so that the magnetic part is within 1 inch of the sensor when the door is down. There is no physical contact between the two. I used liquid nail to attach my sensor to the concrete floor, but there are holes if you want to drive lag bolts into your concrete. I drilled holes in the garage door to attach the metal plate. Again, the plate does not go underneath the door where it would hit the floor. It goes on the interior face of the door just above the bottom of the door.
EDIT: For what it's worth, I've had this kit for almost a year and I've never had a problem with it. Note that this same contact closure is used in professional security systems all over the country. It's not even made by Smarthome. In my humble opinion, a mecury switch is not the way to go here. I really think you'll have far more accuracy and reliability with a mag switch. With my mag switch, if the door goes up even 1 inch the state changes. That state of a mercury switch on a garage door would take longer to change state because a larger range of motion needs to occur before the switch will tilt enough. |
www.jltsoft.com |
Edited by - Xpendable on 11/06/2009 12:00:13 PM |
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jeffw_00
Advanced Member
896 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 12:10:32 PM
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Valid points all - although I would argue that the installation for tilt sensor is much easier. I have a standalone kit on both doors using a tilt-sensor, cost <$50 for the entire thing, and it's also worked flawlessly for years. I'd like to integrate it with insteon, but I'm still concerned about glueing/screwing something to the floor that's often wet, sandy, salty, etc (are you in a environment that has winters?) I guess it doesn't hurt when the car runs over it either?
I'd also need to figure out what I want to use for an indicator (no free Switchlinc buttons right now).
Thanks though
/j
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Tfitzpatri8
Administrator
USA
1833 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 1:29:58 PM
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Wouldn't a motion sensor attached to the inside of the door work as well as a tilt sensor?
You could use a TriggerLinc with a tilt/ motion switch (attaches to dry contact screws on the TriggerLinc) to serve as a mobile tilt indicator, as was already suggested in another thread (http://www.smarthome.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=163&whichpage=18&SearchTerms=triggerlinc), but that's an inferior solution--a wireless sensor would require battery changes and couldn't control the door like the Garage Door Kit does. |
Volunteer Moderator & Home Automation Enthusiast |
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jeffw_00
Advanced Member
896 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 1:35:54 PM
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A tilt or contact switch will tell you the STATE of the Door - up or down. Unless i'm missing what you're saying, a motion sensor will just detect a change in state (or perhaps, just movement in the garage). So no, I don't think it would work for me. It might well work for you, though, doesn't take much to make you happy 8-}
and I haven't changed the coin battery in my tilt sensor for years, and have had one battery change in the year I've had my motion sensor. Come on - you're just making up reasons out of whole cloth now. 8-} |
Edited by - jeffw_00 on 11/06/2009 7:58:33 PM |
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MikeB
Advanced Member
USA
1741 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 2:53:24 PM
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I have the same garage door sensor and decided to mount it at the top of my door. Once I saw the sensor first-hand I found there were several mounting options that would have worked for me.
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Michael D. Boulanger
interfaceGO
www.interfaceGO.com
Universal Devices, Inc.
www.universal-devices.com
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Tfitzpatri8
Administrator
USA
1833 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 5:59:06 PM
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BTW, if you aren't a subscriber to Smarthome's mailing list, here's the latest on Insteon kits:
http://www.smarthome.com/091105R.html
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Volunteer Moderator & Home Automation Enthusiast |
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stusviews
Advanced Member
USA
1452 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 6:18:27 PM
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| MikeB is correct. There are many possibilities for placement. I mounted the sensor to the side of the door near the bottom. Easily done, works well. |
Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to view today?
Stu's Views does not sell anything.
www.stusviews.net
www.mathlandia.net |
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1984911Porsche
Average Member
161 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 7:30:50 PM
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MikeB,
When using a Keypad linc to monitor the status, which version of Keypadlinc do you need?
ThanksM |
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LeeG
Advanced Member
USA
411 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 09:10:18 AM
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| Any of the Insteon KeypadLincs can be used to indicate the status of I/O Linc. I have an older 1.4 version and a 1.5+ version that display garage door status. I use mine in 8 button mode but 6 button mode works fine also. The KPL buttons are simply another Responder device to the I/O Linc controller. |
Lee G |
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alevey
Starting Member
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 9:43:07 PM
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While the price of the Garage kit is reasonable, the install ease/effort is not ideal. A Triggerlinc will be more then enough for most people... the sensor could be mounted to the side of the garage, or the top.
But, I agree that a single box using with a tilt sensor, using RF, would be FAR superior (both price and install) since it would require an Access Point and a battery operated tilt box... that is it.
SmartHome is not trying to make the devices/kits simple... they are trying to make use of what they have already developed - not what they can develop. This is why I won't buy any of these "kits"... I don't want a ton of wiring and IOlincs all over the place, which is ridiculous. The door lock is almost funny compared to the Zwave version... I'm not a Zwave fan but they did the lock correctly, SH is hacking it together using stock parts... shame shame.
I can use some old X10 motion sensors and devices and do many of their "kits" for under $20. |
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jeffw_00
Advanced Member
896 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 06:45:20 AM
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I agree that a tilt sensor is the right way to do this. I also agree that SH is using what they have. To be fair, it's possible that they don't think the volume for a -single- application is worth the development costs for a custom solution, but what I think they're missing is that by developing a few general purpose parts (tilt sensor, programmable enunciator), they will be able to improve -all- their kits across the board. I hope their thinking isn't "well if people by the hack kits, we'll build hardware to make them better" because it's sort of self-defeating.
/j |
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jeffw_00
Advanced Member
896 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 06:46:26 AM
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| BTW - has anyone else on "instant notification" gotten email that people (like carlobee) have posted to this thread, come to see the reply, and it's not here? what's up with that? |
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Tfitzpatri8
Administrator
USA
1833 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 07:03:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffw_00
BTW - has anyone else on "instant notification" gotten email that people (like carlobee) have posted to this thread, come to see the reply, and it's not here? what's up with that?
You will get those messages when a reply is posted, but not if a reply is edited or deleted by the poster or the moderator. |
Volunteer Moderator & Home Automation Enthusiast |
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jeffw_00
Advanced Member
896 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 07:09:25 AM
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| Thanks Tom. I'm sure there are responses I don't need to see. Thanks for your vigilance. 8-} |
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alevey
Starting Member
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 07:51:40 AM
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In my line of work I often have the discussion about the difference between a 'developer' and a 'designer' - Smarthome engineers are clearly developers, not designers.
A developer builds based on a combination of some parameters such as... solve a problem, build to cost, build to high MTBF, etc.
A designer takes it beyond what the developer does and looks as usability, form, function, etc.
SH needs some designers - which they have FREE if they listen to their customers.
I have poopoo'd SH in a few threads, and they deserve it, but that is not to say they get everything wrong - they do many things right. Unfortunately, they don't have a good (read as formal) feedback process to get solid design and feature ideas accounted for. A single massive, unusable thread for requests is not usable.
btw... not just blowing smoke... I work daily with planning/design/marketing teams in a $1 billion division of one of the top 3 computer companies in the world. It might be a different scale but the methodology is the same. |
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jeffw_00
Advanced Member
896 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 08:00:39 AM
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Truth is, and I don't mean this negatively - most of SH's revenue comes from the commercial/builder market, I believe, and not the consumer/hobbyist market. Thus, they listen to the commercial customers, and we get what falls out of the discussion. That's capitalism, and probably keeps their INSTEON line in business.
Problem is, those customers aren't often the most creative (again, no offense to anyone), and SH should realize that good ideas can come from anywhere, and that their commercial customers might like good ideas they didn't think of, if they're presented to them. So hopefully SH at least reads the ideas here and runs them by their commercial accounts. I suspect that they do.
Assuming, that is, that the good SH people who quickly review this forum from time to time can even FIND the new ideas. I also agree that "A single massive, unusable thread for requests is not usable.", but individual new idea postings are wiped from existence quicker than you can blink your eyes. Seems wrong to me, but, here again, our opinions on this don't matter, and SH is not aware of the problem.
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MikeB
Advanced Member
USA
1741 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 10:11:03 AM
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quote:
When using a Keypad linc to monitor the status, which version of Keypadlinc do you need?
Any version of the KeypadLinc should be fine I would think.
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Michael D. Boulanger
interfaceGO
www.interfaceGO.com
Universal Devices, Inc.
www.universal-devices.com
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IndyMike
Average Member
184 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 03:51:22 AM
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Hello alevey,
While I'll agree that the SH IOlinc/Lock kit is a hack, I'm not aware of another remote "locking" setup currently on the market.
You mentioned a Zwave solution - I'm familiar with the Schlage ILink. It doesn't actually lock the doors (requires manual intervention).
I've also been following the development of the Black and Decker (Kwikset) Smartlock which is purported to support bock remote lock/unlock as well as lock status. I haven't seen any on the market as yet.
Is there another Zwave solution that I missed?
quote:
Originally posted by alevey
SmartHome is not trying to make the devices/kits simple... they are trying to make use of what they have already developed - not what they can develop. This is why I won't buy any of these "kits"... I don't want a ton of wiring and IOlincs all over the place, which is ridiculous. The door lock is almost funny compared to the Zwave version... I'm not a Zwave fan but they did the lock correctly, SH is hacking it together using stock parts... shame shame.
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gatchel
Senior Member
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 12:38:33 PM
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I have worked in 100's of commercial and residential buildings on security devices of sorts.
I have never seen or installed a tilt device to monitor a garage door. Not to say that it doesn't exist, just that it's not common.
Anyone with any kind of security or home automation interest of monitoring a door status will wire it to their alarm or automation panel and have it "do things" using the logic of the panel.
Linking devices using insteon technology in this manner could get real expensive, fast.
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jeffw_00
Advanced Member
896 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 12:47:36 PM
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It's definitely a commercial vs residential issue.
I have wireless tilt sensors on both my garage doors, they both work great. However, I'll bet that if I hired someone to do this for me it would be hard-wired - both because that is probably marginally more reliable, and he couldn't make any money off installing the wireless system.
Same thing on my driveway sensor - it's wireless, needs a battery change annually, but works quite well. No doubt an installer would have put in a wired pressure sensor. I agree they're more reliable.
and I have no idea what an installer would do if I asked for a mailbox sensor 8-} (but here again, wireless tilt-sensor works fine - although based on my experience with the motion sensor, I don't think that unit has the range to get the additional 65' to the street).
Problem is - having been accustomed to paying $30-$50 for these solutions, I'm not easily going to pay 2-3x as much for the marginal increase in reliability. And perhaps SH could sell higher volume with lower-priced solutions.
just my $.02
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Lame Kits?
