| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
nmaycher
Starting Member
Canada
8 Posts |
 Posted - 04/03/2011 : 05:47:08 AM
|
Hello,
I think I’ve finally decided to start my home automation journey…starting with Insteon. However, I’d like some ability to add security features before making the plunge to something like Elk. Along those ends, I’ve scoured the forums but couldn’t find clears answers to the questions below. Perhaps someone who’s learned through the trial of pain and mistakes could help?
1. Does the SwtichLinc w/ sense report to the central software when a connected motion detector is activated?
2. Does a load connected to the SwitchLinc have to activate when a connected motion detector is activated or can it be programmed to only respond to the physical press of the switch or the central software?
3. Do all major software options (e.g. MControl, HouseLinc, Homeseer, Girder, ECS) offer custom programmed related to Sense?
4. Can anyone recommend a 120V indoor sensor (preferably cost effective)? The only ones I can find are roof mounted 360 degree. I’m surprised Smarthome doesn’t offer a package given they show a motion detector in their wiring schematic example.
5. Is there a technical reason why there is no I/O Linc as a built in option like the Switchlinc (so that you could keep the wires in the wall)? I could then use the more readily available 12V motion detectors. But I’m not okay with the idea having this bulky outlet exposed with visible wires on the bottom.
Appreciate any insights…don’t want to head down the wrong path at the start.
Nathan
|
|
|
Tfitzpatri8
Administrator
USA
6866 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 07:52:51 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by nmaycher
Hello,
I think I’ve finally decided to start my home automation journey…starting with Insteon. However, I’d like some ability to add security features before making the plunge to something like Elk. Along those ends, I’ve scoured the forums but couldn’t find clears answers to the questions below. Perhaps someone who’s learned through the trial of pain and mistakes could help?
Hi Nathan, welcome to the forum!
I don't know that there's any benefit in learning by trial and mistakes--I learned mostly by reading. In my experience, the company that sponsors this forum does a pretty good job of documenting device operation--where competitor devices often just have a page or two explaining basic operations, Smarthome's product pages generally include links to comprehensive owner's manuals and quick start guides in addition to specifications that you can read before purchasing a thing. They also have handy comparison charts in their catalogs so you can see at a glance how similar devices differ (offering quick comparison between the different styles of lamp module, for instance).
That said, you might be putting the cart before the horse. Security systems employ tamper-resistant battery-backed or operated devices and low-voltage wiring to function even if a thief cuts power at the electric meter. A security system reports events directly to a central station to generate a response by authorities. By contrast, Insteon is a control protocol that requires no separate wiring and communicates over shared 120 volt power lines, but does so only when those lines are energized.
If you are looking for security features, go with the Elk first. Once you have security handled, the Elk can also integrate nicely with Insteon gear to intelligently match your remote controlled lighting to time and activity in your house.
quote:
1. Does the SwtichLinc w/ sense report to the central software when a connected motion detector is activated?
2. Does a load connected to the SwitchLinc have to activate when a connected motion detector is activated or can it be programmed to only respond to the physical press of the switch or the central software?
3. Do all major software options (e.g. MControl, HouseLinc, Homeseer, Girder, ECS) offer custom programmed related to Sense?
Yes, yes, and yes. The Sense feature is just an automatic way to turn the control on and off. When voltage is applied to the Sense circuit, the SwitchLinc w/ Sense turns on and sends an ON signal identical to what it sends if you walked up to the switch and pressed the ON (top) side of the switch paddle.
Your software can receive this ON signal and know the switch is now active. The switch doesn't distinguish in any way whether the light was turned on at the switch or by another device attached to the Sense circuit.
quote:
4. Can anyone recommend a 120V indoor sensor (preferably cost effective)? The only ones I can find are roof mounted 360 degree. I’m surprised Smarthome doesn’t offer a package given they show a motion detector in their wiring schematic example.
If you can install a two-gang box, you could probably use a SwitchLinc with Sense alongside a wall-mounted occupancy sensor like this: http://www.smarthome.com/2520W/Leviton-ODS10-IDW-Commercial-Grade-Wall-Mounted-Occupancy-Sensor-White/p.aspx
but the easier and less expensive solution is to use a standard SwitchLinc along with one of these: http://www.smarthome.com/2420M/Wireless-INSTEON-Motion-Occupancy-Sensor/p.aspx
If you are installing an Elk, you'd be better off using Elk programming to use its low-voltage security motion detectors to trigger Insteon lighting scenes as well.
quote:
5. Is there a technical reason why there is no I/O Linc as a built in option like the Switchlinc (so that you could keep the wires in the wall)? I could then use the more readily available 12V motion detectors. But I’m not okay with the idea having this bulky outlet exposed with visible wires on the bottom.
I could speculate, but you would need to reach out to someone at SmartLabs to be sure. This site is a user-to-user forum.
quote:
Appreciate any insights…don’t want to head down the wrong path at the start.
Nathan
Sounds like you want to start with a security system first, then we can help with questions related to Insteon and automatic and convenience controls later. |
Volunteer Moderator & Home Automation Enthusiast |
 |
|
|
LeeG
Advanced Member
USA
2094 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 10:56:04 AM
|
| Stu will know this for sure but I think code does not allow low voltage wiring in the same box as 120V. Would be impossible to have an IO Linc (or any other combination device) mounted in an electrical box. Things like irrigation pump relays have the low voltage 24 AC connections walled off in a separate part of the relay box. |
Lee G |
|
|
|
nmaycher
Starting Member
Canada
8 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 11:11:42 AM
|
Appreciate the long and detailed response. With respect to putting the cart before the hourse, I don’t doubt that I am. I’ve been looking at Elk for about 3 years now, and have itemized my system a few times. However, I only want a hardwired system and it’s going to take a long time to install it, so it’s never risen higher on the “reno” list than other pressing matters. It will sooner or later, however since I’m installing some automation now (to meet the wife’s needs) I thought I might select a system which could give me some basic (and I do mean basic) security notices, via software running on my desktop (either via VOIP, phone or e-mail) and both UPB and Insteon seem to offer this.
Not looking for something fancy, just better than what we have right now which is nothing.
On the sensors, I found that Levelton this morning and went to look at Home Depot. It does in fact have 3 wires which would seem to match the requirements of the Sense. I was thinking the double gang box might be the way to go.
I also found this Lumapro 120V motion sensor by Granger, which seems to match more closely what Smarthome references in their wiring diagram.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LUMAPRO-Motion-Sensor-2LBN4?Pid=search
It’s too bad that the load connected to the Switchlink must go on when motion is detected. I was hoping to simply replace some existing switches with the Switchlink and have the load either locally controlled by the switch or remotely controlled by the central system, and have the bonus of a motion detector signal being sent when motion is detected.
If I understand you correctly, in order to achieve this is sounds like I would have to do a double gang box if I use the Grainger, and just have the Switchlinc not connected to a load. And if I want to use the Levelton, I would need a triple box, neither of which are ideal options.
Another option would then be to purchase an In-Line Relay connected directed to the motion detector however it looks to big to install in an existing box along with a normal switch, so it would probably require a separate box as well.
Nathan
|
Edited by - nmaycher on 04/03/2011 11:12:05 AM |
|
|
|
nmaycher
Starting Member
Canada
8 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 11:41:48 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by LeeG
Stu will know this for sure but I think code does not allow low voltage wiring in the same box as 120V. Would be impossible to have an IO Linc (or any other combination device) mounted in an electrical box.
Thanks Lee. That makes sense as I would imagine that someone would have made one either for Insteon or UPB. Not that it sounds logical though, given the risk of low voltage wiring is much lower than 120V.
Nathan |
|
|
|
Tfitzpatri8
Administrator
USA
6866 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 11:58:29 AM
|
This is the normal solution for interior motion and occupancy sensing: http://www.smarthome.com/2420M/Wireless-INSTEON-Motion-Occupancy-Sensor/p.aspx
You can power it with a battery eliminator if you are concerned about changing batteries. It can be linked directly to an Insteon device, or you can use it as a sensor for your automation software to trigger lighting or email notification events. |
Volunteer Moderator & Home Automation Enthusiast |
|
|
|
stusviews
Advanced Member
USA
8412 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 2:28:17 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by nmaycher
quote:
Originally posted by LeeG
Stu will know this for sure but I think code does not allow low voltage wiring in the same box as 120V. Would be impossible to have an IO Linc (or any other combination device) mounted in an electrical box.
Thanks Lee. That makes sense as I would imagine that someone would have made one either for Insteon or UPB. Not that it sounds logical though, given the risk of low voltage wiring is much lower than 120V.
Nathan
The danger is that in the event of a short the low voltage wires would be carrying line voltage. Also, low voltage insulation is not made for 120V. |
Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics fun and learning.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver. |
|
|
|
nmaycher
Starting Member
Canada
8 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2012 : 2:57:39 PM
|
So I finally bought an occupancy sensor and after several tries still can't get it to work. What I bought was a Lutron MS-OP600G which is a two wire + ground sensor. I don't know which wires on the Inline to connect to the sensor (and I'm not planning on having a load attached). I've tried:
- 1)In line Sense, 2) Inline Black - nothing
- 1)In line Sense, 2) Inline Red - nothing
- 1)In line Sense, 2) Inline Red+Black - nothing
I thought the current would flow from the red wireon the inline and return via the sense wire but that doesn't seem to be working (and the sense would be "triggered" whenever the motion sensor went off).
Any ideas? Do I need a three wire occupancy sensor?
Nathan |
|
|
|
BLH
Advanced Member
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2012 : 3:23:56 PM
|
The MS-OP600G is made for incandescent and halogen loads. It gets its power through the load.
So it will not work where you want to use it.
|
|
|
|
stusviews
Advanced Member
USA
8412 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2012 : 4:28:51 PM
|
| line-->black-[motion sensor]-red-->sense wire may work. |
Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics fun and learning.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver. |
|
|
|
nmaycher
Starting Member
Canada
8 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2012 : 05:47:10 AM
|
BLH -> Any suggestions on what occupancy sensor would work? Lutron alone has about a dozen, never mind other brands. Would the MS-OPS2H-WH-C work (appears to be a simpler version, not for dimmers or halogens) but still only 2 wires, like a normal light switch?
stusviews -> Just so I'm clear, you're suggesting connecting the black/line to the first terminal of the motion detector and connecting both the red and the sense wire from the In-LineLinc to the second terminal of the motion detector?
And a general question, does the In-LineLinc "sense" the voltage differential between the sense wire and the line wire to determine if the motion detector has switched?
Appreciate the prompt responses.
Nathan |
Edited by - nmaycher on 08/10/2012 05:58:29 AM |
|
|
|
stusviews
Advanced Member
USA
8412 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2012 : 11:42:12 AM
|
Sorry I wasn't clear...
line-->black wire from motion sensor-[motion sensor]-red wire from motion sensor-->In-LineLinc sense wire
Yes, the sense wire senses a difference in voltage between itself and neutral. BTW, that's why some dual brightness motion sensors don't work well with the In-LineLinc. In particular, the difference is not great enough. |
Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia High school mathematics fun and learning.
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
Saving energy is not always free. Be a world saver. |
|
|
|
nmaycher
Starting Member
Canada
8 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2012 : 03:53:08 AM
|
stusviews: Appreciate the help. I think the issue was the specific occupancy sensor I had. I went out and purchased a simpler Lutron, the MS-OPS2H-WH-C (Maestro Small Room Occupancy Sensing Switch) and it has worked fine. If you connect the black from the In-LineLinc and the Sense/Yellow from the In-LineLinc to the two wires on the Lutron, it works. However, the occupancy sensor will always be on.
If you connect the Red from the In-LineLinc and the Yellow from the In-LineLinc, I can use HomeSeer to turn off the Occupancy Sensor when we're in the house (and avoid triggering it, and the noticeable "click" from the relay).
The picture below shows the install. I had to use a double box to fit the In-LineLinc in, and just put a regular switch in front as cover (not hooked up to anything). If anybody would like a hardwired Insteon motion detector, I think this option is pretty good. I have found this Occupancy sensor very reliable and very sensitive.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/74393557@N00/7863108896/in/photostream |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
SwitchLinc w/Sense + indoor motion detector
