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KevinGFL
Starting Member
9 Posts |
 Posted - 01/23/2008 : 11:30:16 PM
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I'm nearing a decision on lighting for my home and could use your help. The SH forums have been extremely valuable in researching ideas and challenges with Insteon. Here's what I like about it: seemingly straightforward to program, attractive dimmers with available etching, multi-location scenes, and the price is decent. Here's what I fear based on a few experiences I've read but cannot substantiate first hand: above average DOA switches, reliability issues after a year or two, issues with the neutral wire (that does not exist in a few of my junction boxes), response issues - more of a "delay" in scenes/lights going on than other systems, and I get the sense that there are some [intentionally?] undocumented "known issues" with Insteon.
Here's what I am considering: Insteon ($), Z-Wave ($$), Lutron RadioRA ($$$). So far, Insteon seems to be the best value, but that will not be the case if the concerns above become reality. Z-Wave devices appear to be very reliable and responsive from what I've read, but I am not too thrilled with their aesthetics (such as lack of labeled scene selection like a Keypad Linc). Lutron is pretty sweet, but I might need an installer and I'm having trouble finding a source to buy hardware directly.
Well, here's the $40K question I have for you:
- Insteon...Would you do it again?
- Would you do it again but wait until the devices mature further / move to a future version?
- If you switched to a Z-Wave or Lutron system (or did it in the first place), would you recommend that direction over Insteon?
- Any other misc. considerations
I'm trying to do this install once and not uninstall a system after the fact. Even if you're able to give me quick sentence with your words of wisdom, I would greatly appreciate it. |
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SnyperBob
Starting Member
11 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2008 : 11:59:21 PM
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Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat. I really am attracted to all the positives about Insteon, but I am a little wary about all the issues reported on the Internet boards. I also understand that 75% or more 'bad posts' about Insteon products are just because of failure. Not many people are going to post about how great it is. They'll just use it and be happy.
But still, I am just too timid to commit at this point. I kind of want to get my feet wet before committing. I have a few devices, so I signed up to (hopefully) become a beta tester and try more of their products before dropping tons of cash outfitting my whole house with devices. I just can't afford to buy a hundred devices and have them fail later down the line after a warranty is up or what have you. |
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keepersg
Average Member
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 06:16:44 AM
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| Yes, I'd do it again despite a few switch failures. The product line is more mature than when I started and the other technologies are not without their problems. I would use a hard wired system if I had open walls either cenralite or lutron. If I couldn't get neutrals to the boxes, I'd go with z-wave although I'd advise reading about problems with it before investing (see cocoontech). Lutron radio-ra is a great system but limited and you may be able to open your walls, install a hardwired system and close them up for a similar outlay (not really unless you do drywall yourself). |
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MikeB
Advanced Member
USA
1753 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 06:23:56 AM
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Yes, I think I would still go with Insteon. When I started my lighting project, I considered Insteon, UPB, and Z-Wave.
Some reasons I chose Insteon:
- I didn't like the idea of RF-only lighting control. I try to go hardwired whenever possible. While powerline signal issues are pain, they are typically solvable. If you're getting RF interference from some neighbor's device, how do you filter that? At EHX this past fall, the guy at the Intermatic booth couldn't even link a pair of switches for me, presumably because of other RF activity going on at the time. That's the kind of thing that had me concerned.
- Lack of keypads that control a load. I don't believe there is currently a Z-Wave keypad that controls a load, and as far as I know only Simply Automated makes a UPB keypad that will. In most locations that I have a keypad installed, I need that device to control a load. I'm not sure why this is not more common, it's a no-brainer to me.
- Price. Insteon allowed me to automate my entire house within my budget. With UPB or Z-Wave, it would have been much more difficult to justify the cost. While Insteon prices have risen slightly since I ordered the bulk of my devices (unless you consider the disappearance of the Icon line - but I never liked/used Icon switches), Insteon is still substantially cheaper than UPB or Z-Wave.
- Wireless. While Z-Wave is obviously not lacking in this area, UPB is. Insteon had the promise of future RF devices, and they are now finally showing up (RemoteLinc, Thermostat Adapter, etc..).
- Keypad Looks - I went into this project knowing that I would order custom-etched buttons for all my keypads. While a bit amateur looking using the clear keys/insert labels, the KeypadLincs are top-notch looking with the custom-etched buttons.
- Switch functionality - I don't like the look of Leviton Z-Wave devices, and I don't like the fact that both the Leviton (and now Cooper) switches are toggle switches. I much prefer a true rocker switch, for both aesthetics and functionality reasons. I also don't like the lack of a level indicator on UPB switches - I think it's important to know, at a glance, if a switch is at full brightness or not, and that it can be brightened further.
- Speed. I'm not sure how Lutron compares, but contrary to your post one of the reasons I went with Insteon was because of the speed. UPB devices were slow to turn on (this has been improved with their recent generation 2 line of switches). I found Insteon as fast or faster than any other technology I tried.
Now that I am an Insteon owner, and have been for about 1.5 years, I'd like to see the following:
- Improvements in hardware reliability. While I have had better luck than some, it seems, any failure is a pain. After isntalling 60+ light switches in their home, nobody wants to replace even a few in a year. I've probably had about 3 or 4 switch failures in the time I've owned Insteon. I've had no failure of PLCs, PLMs, LampLincs, ApplianceLincs, etc. SmartHome has recently improved the quality of the tact switch used in its SwitchLinc line of products, which should hopefully help with long term reliability.
- Improvements in hardware QC. While I've had 3 or 4 switch failures as stated above, I've had a few more that were problematic out of the box. When ordering new Insteon products, I now hook them up outside of the wall to check and be sure they have a good feel, that they seem to function properly (on, off, brighten, dim), and that their LED is a consistent color. The last thing I want to do is go through the trouble of installing it in the wall just to find out that the switch has a mechanical issue out of the box. While the vast majority of times the devices are fine, the fact that I even feel the need to do this is not good. Switches should be tested heavily at the factory for functionality, fit and feel, and cosmetic consistency to avoid these kind of issues.
- Improvements in firmware QC. Nobody is perfect, but some of the firmware issues that have cropped up should have been caught during beta testing. SmartHome has a wealth of Insteon users and developers at their disposal - they should take more advantage of them. Developers of Insteon-compatible software should have plenty of time and information available for them to correctly add support for a new product or firmware release before the product hits the shelves. And if there's a firmware issue with that new product or firmware release, these are the guys that can help identify them before release. It's extremely important for products like the ISY, PowerHome and HouseLinc to have support ready for new Insteon products as soon as they are released. Even seemingly minor firmware updates should be heavily tested. You never know what other effects even a small change might have. I think the public request for additional beta testers is a good sign.
- Field firmware upgrades. I realize that field firmware upgradeable in-wall devices might not be feasible, but some devices should absolutely be upgradeable by the end-user. Certainly the PLM would benefit from this. Like I mentioned above, nobody is perfect, firmware bugs will always exist, but making a device user-upgradeable makes that a bit easier to swallow. Also, nothing makes a user happier than functionality added after purchase by a simple firmware upgrade.
As for neutral in every switch, that can be an issue. It's typically solvable using an InlineLinc at the fixture location, or SmartHome's new 2-wire product. In my home, I was able to work around any that I found lacking a neutral. They were either 3-way locations where I could pass a neutral using a now-unused traveler, or switch locations controlling an outlet that I changed to dummy switch locations and, again, was able to pass neutral using existing wires.
At the end of the day, I think Insteon is still the best choice for me and my home. While I have had some growing pains with the technology and products, overall I've been very happy and really enjoy the capabilities it gives me in my home. While I like the IDEA of Z-Wave, in general, I don't like the existing crop of products. Everybody's wants, needs, and budgets are different however. If you have the ability, spend a few $ and purchase a handful of each device to test for yourself and in your own home.
Whatever you decide, good luck! |
Michael D. Boulanger
interfaceGO
www.interfaceGO.com
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bhlonewolf
Senior Member
325 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 07:15:16 AM
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I would do it again, too. I'm nearing 1 year with my install (total about 30 devices, I think). Knock-wood, I have had only 1 failure (a lamplinc). While I agree there may be some QA and other issues, I would suspect the majority of folks have no problems.
Powerline issues are problematic at times. Get a bunch of filterlincs, and test. It would be great if we had better diagnostic equipment -- and I mean idiot proof stuff -- plug it in, and it indicates line noise, insteon signals, etc.
The product line is maturing (albeit SLOWLY) but it is getting there. If the IRLinc and thermostat hit market this year, that will be great.
I'd like to see higher-load relays, too.
Ultimately, I'd do it again. |
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Xpendable
Advanced Member
USA
606 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 07:46:23 AM
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I think I would do it again. I was a little disappointed with the price increases, switch failures, firmware bugs, and decrease in value (imho) with removal of the clear plastic buttons in the KeypadLinc packaging.
Even after all that, I'm still tentatively planning on converting my new home to Insteon when we move later in the year. The fact is, I think I would miss my Insteon "stuff" if I didn't have it. Insteon is still less expensive than some of the other solutions out there, and it works relatively well -- not counting the switch failures. And of course I'm building J-LTFX for Insteon, which is our entry into the software-based home automation web server market. It's been a lot of fun (and work) writing this software, and it means were still committed to the Insteon technology.
My thoughts on responsiveness: Actually, I feel that Insteon is extremely fast and responsive, especially when you are activating scenes that are programmed on the devices. I like that I can create a scene that contains every light in my house, and with 1 button press I can nearly instantly turn on every light in the house in about 1/10 of a second. I like that this "button" can be any switch in my house, or a button-click on my Windows Mobile PDA. |
Use Light Show Master to create animated light shows using your Insteon equipment. See how at http://www.jltsoft.com |
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andrew77
New Member
Canada
29 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 07:49:45 AM
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I'd most definitely do it again. Even though there have been a few issues (there usually is with pretty much everything, isn't there?)
I think it's made life a little easier here.
I originally got a KPL and a SWL because I didn't want to have to tear out more drywall and run 14/3 to the bottom of my stairs.
Now I can have sunset timers so we don't come home to a dark house but still don't have to leave the lights on all day.
I also have a few out buildings on a different service but I can control the lights on them from the main house as well. That's great when you see someone left a light on.
The ramp rates and dim levels are just a plus.
I also have a remotelinc that I'd carry all the time if my wife would let me. (I'm an OCD button pusher, HAHAHA)
We have remotes for everything else, why not the one thing that's in every room in the house.
Drew |
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stusviews
Advanced Member
USA
2456 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 09:42:27 AM
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Simply stated, "I would do it again." Although I've had a few device failures, they were quickly attended to by SH.
Customer service is an important part of any installation and, IMO, SH shines. Under warranty, they pay shipping both ways and wiil "send before receive." Tech support is pretty good too.
I've also been able to integrate X10 compatible devices without any addition software or hardware. Even if you're just starting out, this is an advantage because of the wealth of X10 products available that currently have no INSTEON equivalent.
I also like that the KPL can control a load, a double tap on a SwitchLinc dimmer brings the load to full brightness (single tap if it's already on), and the available customization at a reasonable cost compared to other home automation systems, such as paddles, buttons, and switch plates.
BTW, I've been using home automation for more that a decade. |
Stu's Views is Education and Fun. What do YOU want to VIEW today?
MathLandia Mathematics fun and learning
Both Stu's Views and MathLandia are free websites that do not sell anything.
The person who knows how can be employed, the person who knows why will be in charge. |
Edited by - stusviews on 01/24/2008 10:13:10 AM |
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yroca23
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 10:52:29 AM
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I would do it again. I have had issues with a few products in the line, but pretty much the same issues. Smarthome has been very helpful in getting them replaced under warranty. I have 40+ switches and have gone several months without issue.
I echo an earlier post that you will tend to see more negative feedback than positive. I am less likely to come here and post when things go well - because that is what I expect.
I am looking forward to some of the newer Insteon products hitting the market and hope to continue to expand my system. |
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sloop
Advanced Member
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 1:11:14 PM
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oh hell naw
no working powerline interface
i don't want to change out failed devices constantly - no matter how eager the customer service is to honor their warranty
too much slight of hand with the claims for devices - inductive/resistive - partial support for their own protocol - 'dual mesh' - x10 and insteon can coexist
denial of obvious problems and no information on status of fixes
when fixed devices are available, you get to buy them instead of getting a free replacement
years of promising a fix would be available for houselinc 'next week'
no two led status colors are the same
no customer followup when they promise to contact you
when you do want to buy another device, it will be discontinued or changed so that the look or functionality does not match
evidently, if you do not buy from smarthome, there is no warranty unless the retailer handles it
seems to be a high employee turnover by the manufacturer - which i suspect delays fixes
single source for devices
the support group either lies or is incompetent - they had to know the 'paddle problem' was real but were always surprised when i called them about it
you might dismiss a few people with problems as malcontents - but insteon has many unsatisfied users - this is not true for other product lines - they simply do not have as many problems
i don't see the price as any bargain - you will have failures and might not be able to turn on a light until the device is swapped (assuming the same device is still available)
strange that people want to point out holes in other product lines - insteon has many
strange that rf is pointed out as a strength for insteon but a weakness for z/wave
evidently upb punches out a stronger signal - i'd look into that if you go with a powerline product line - probably would not have to (as another guy said) 'chase as many ghosts'
if you live alone and have low expectations, give it a try - if anyone else is in the house - never inflict insteon on anyone |
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gatchel
Senior Member
USA
303 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 2:08:24 PM
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Insteon was simply an X-10 alternative for me. I tried some X-10 control with my ELK M1 and it wasn't reliable. I purchased some Insteon devices and they were 100% relaible with regards to communications. I have had some equipment failures but SH has been good to me with returns, 4 out of 15 or so devices.
Would I do it again, I guess. Now that there are other technologies available I would do some more research first.
Will I be changing out every switch in the house that I would like to? Not any time soon. I have used Insteon devices in key places where they provide a conveinance to me. For example, my driveway motion light can stay on during heavy winds...I put in a switch in the garage and a Keypadlinc in a table top controller in my bedroom under the edge of the bed (only because the LED's are TOO BRIGHT). Now I don't have to run to the garage at 2:00AM to turn the light off.
Smarthome has to "prove themselves" before I spend more to get the fully automated house. Especially, with the get less / charge more approach to doing business. |
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me2
New Member
19 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 3:07:50 PM
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| I would do it again. In fact, I am still doing it. Still expanding my systems. I have had two failures, one during a lighting storm that also took out my Elk and one Togglelinc Dimmer that should have been a Togglelinc Relay. 30+ devices installed for up to a year now. |
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AD8BC
Senior Member
298 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 3:44:24 PM
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With the exception of one KPL that I purchased on Ebay from The Home Automation Store (and they very promptly replaced it, it had a bad LED), I have not had any problems with the 25 Insteon devices that I have.
That being said, I respect Digger and Sloop and the problems that they have run into. My recommendations are to purchase your devices with a credit card that a) will charge back to the vendor when you are not treated as per the manufacturer's warranty, and b) that will double the manufacturers warranty.
I am not satisfied with changes that Smarthome has made to their product lines (keypad legends to be specific). I think Smarthome needs to learn to remember that they got this far by selling this equipment to those of us here, and that they need to listen to us and try to keep things consistent. I understand that they try to add value but it needs be added without taking away from how things work already and how most of us plan to expand but want to be consistent. |
7 KPL, 3 SWL Dimmers, 3 ICON Relay Switches, 1 TGL Relay, 1 TGL Dimmer, 1 ILL Dimmer, 1 APL Relay, 6 LL, 1 ISY!!! and a partridge in a pear tree.<p>
Bill's Home Automation Blog: http://billshomeautomationblog.blogspot.com/ |
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mtippen
Junior Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 3:57:05 PM
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Yes I'd do it again -- with the following qualifiers/advice:
Factor in the cost, time and hassle of occasionally replacing failed devices. "Bought-in" to whole-home Insteon (30-40 devices) about 4-5 months ago and have had several devices fail.
Also prepare to spend a fair amount of your time on the forums learning the ins, outs and quirks of the devices you purchase. Some people enjoy this (myself sometimes) and some find it a waste of time (myself sometimes). Smarthome personnel do not adequately participate in the forum discussion and are very, very, very slow to incorporate user input into their products. On the other hand the community of users in the forum is amazing. There are so many bright and creative individuals that are willing to guide you through issues and questions.
I do worry about Smarthome/Insteon's long-term viability. Based on their only moderate rate of innovation and correction of known issues, I sometimes feel they do not have sufficient resources in place.
Device delay is not an issue I have with the Insteon products.
Seriously consider purchasing one of the "ISY" products to help you further automate and control your Insteon devices.
http://www.universal-devices.com/99i.htm
Documentation on them is currently quite poor, so there is a bit of a learning curve. However, both the manufacturer support and user community is absolutely phenomenal.
Good luck. |
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rebelzrule
New Member
29 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 6:40:34 PM
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I would also do it again. I have about 50 Insteon devices right now, the oldest ones are almost 1 year old.
The only downside I have experienced is about 5 switchlincs that have failed. I knew that this was a possibility going into it, but Smarthome was very easy to work with in getting these devices promptly replaced. I don't really mind re-installing a switch every once in a while, but I can understand why some people would.
Now that the paddle issues are supposedly fixed, I would not hesitate to do it all over again, although I paid significantly less that the devices now cost.
The only dark cloud looming over my head is if my devices fail after the warranty is expired. Maybe I will get lucky and Smarthome will replace the ones that fail because of the known paddle issue. I'll just keep my fingers crossed.
Other than that issue, everything has worked great. Reliability has been great as has response time.
To me the bottom line is that if I wanted something that was 100% rock solid without any problems, I would have spent $50,000 on a commercial grade hard-wired system. But for my needs and budget, Insteon works great. |
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jgraziano
Average Member
129 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 6:57:36 PM
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I would do it again, but definitely NOT without the ISY. I started out without it, quickly ran into problems with HouseLinc and returned it soon enough to SH for a full refund (no problem) to get the ISY, which I have 0 regrets.
I have had no hardware failures yet, but my installation is still small and it hasn't been through North Carolina thunderstorm season yet.
My biggest complaint is the quirkiness of it, seems flaky at times. Last week I had an Icon lamp module stop responding. It had been working perfectly, it was located literally 1 foot from the PLM and it would not respond. I unplugged it for awhile, after that it worked.
But as a general rule, my scheduled events fire very reliably. |
Jim |
Edited by - jgraziano on 01/24/2008 6:58:57 PM |
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kenm
Senior Member
USA
293 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 8:34:14 PM
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KevinGFL,
I switched from INSTEON to Z-Wave over a year ago and am satisfied with with what I have now. The (last) main problem that I had with INSTEON was the apparent policy of correcting a design defect and then asking the customers to pay for an 'upgraded' device, a device that just happened to be one that actually worked to original specifications.
I do not know if that is still the official company policy or not (and no, I do not want to debate that any more). My problem was that, as a software author supporting actual users in the field, I just knew too much about the existing hardware already, so the 'upgrade' story did not fly with me, it crashed and burned.
I won't rehash all of that here now. If interested, you can check out 'AccessHA.com' for my posts over there, I am that same kenm, also the same on 'CocoonTech.com', on the 'HomeSeer.com' forums I am krmiller53.
INSTEON is much more 'configurable' than the Z-Wave stuff that I have and the actual communications were mostly reliable in my 1500 square foot house with maybe fifteen to twenty devices in use. The Z-Wave device communications are reliable as well and since switching to Z-Wave I have only changed out one hard wired switch due to a defect. I have maybe eight months with 'Leviton' Z-Wave devices and have had no failures on that hardware.
I can not recommend one protocol over the other. There is a varied mix of posts from people with different protocol devices. It seems none of the devices/protocols are perfect. That sort of boils down to price and functionality. You have to make that choice.
Would I buy into an INSTEON system again? No.
Misc. considerations:
Z-Wave is built by various manufacturers. I ended up with the one I felt most comfortable with (Leviton).
You will need to have a lot of faith in any company that has the sole manufacturing right to specific hardware. I have been there and done that and will never do it again.
:)
Ken Miller
Edit corrected: I am krmiller53 on the HomeSeer forum, NOT kenm.
k |
Edited by - kenm on 01/29/2008 7:55:10 PM |
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Sub-Routine
Advanced Member
USA
1145 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 9:04:48 PM
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We had no luck with X10 and tip toed into Insteon. The Acceptance Factor went nowhere but up.
Rand |
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crackers
Average Member
83 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 11:09:01 PM
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2-1/2 years with Insteon and, yes, I'd do it again. I've not had any hardware failures, reliability was outstanding in my old house in Texas with really crappy line noise (where I had lots of problems with X10). I've got one KPL and a WAF of 10.0
Now, I did write my own software and there were several hair-pulling/teeth-grinding issues over that, but once overcome, I've got a pretty damn good system running. I kinda wish I had more money to put into it, but for my small rig, I'm quite happy.
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Professional Java Geek
Linux since 1992
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mtwalsh367@hotmail.com
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2008 : 10:54:05 AM
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Would I do it again - "It Depends"
I have around 30 Insteon devices, HomeSeer, and the Elk/M1G and have been using Insteon since shortly after it first become available. Here is a run down of my exerience
- Generally good customer service and willingness to swap out defective devices or where newer firmware was needed.
- I have replaced 6 devices due to defects or failures and then 4 devices to get newer firware to fix bugs or support newer capabilities, etc.
- After taking care of several line noise problems with filters my Insteon reliability has been very good. The exception to this is when my PLM locks up and then my automation control stops working (maybe once every few weeks).
- Lack of Insteon line noise detection/analysis devices makes it challenging to isolate and debug line noise related issues. This is something that needs to be addressed in my opinion.
- If you have more than a handful of devices you want some sort of configuration management software or hardware. I use Powerhome and it works very well and it sounds lke th ISY is a good hardware approach.
- I think the biggest part of my "it depends" answer is related to vendor support and a more clear roadmap for integration with automation products. More specifically my concerns are with HomeSeer since that is my main automation engine and integration point for security, lighting, IR, weather, etc. The current Insteon HomeSeer plug in seems to be in a holding pattern and I'm not sure if this is due to HomeSeer's plans or issues with the PLM. I started with the PLC plug in and then moved to the PLM plug in when HomeSeer said that was the direction they were moving in. Now there are reliatiblity issues with the PLM so what is next?
- Another "it depends" part of my answer is a lack of direction for having a single configuration management hardware/software option. Currently I maintain my overall Insteon configuration in Powerhome because the HomeSeer plug is not intended to manage your entire configuration and is not solid enough to do so. Therefore when I make any changed in Powerhome I have to go into the HomeSeer plug in and make similar changes. This is geting to be too much work for me and has limited my desire to expand my Insteon installation. Maybe this is just limited to HomeSeer users. I would think that Smarhome would work with the major automation vedors to come up with an open solution that provides for a single configuration option that is not dependent on any one software or hardware vendor.
To sum it up for me. I like the available products and it sounds like the QA and defective device issues have been recognized and are being addressed. The protocol works very well for me. Firmware upgrades must be addressed. Configuration management for adding devices, swapping out devices, managaging links and groups, etc is something that needs to be addressed.
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jeffw_00
Advanced Member
982 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2008 : 11:23:32 AM
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I would do it again. Absolutely There were some issues to work out (just solved my last one today, see other post), but I think INSTEON is most cost-effective, it works, and personally I've found SH Customer Service very accomodating. AND...if you use Powerhome to control it, you can really make it 100% solid (well, 99.9%, but you can get it to report -every- failure. so either it worked, or you are told).
AND - their focus this year is to crank out several new products to broaden their INSTEON offerings.
Actually, as I write I'm on hold waiting to buy some more....
/j |
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KevinGFL
Starting Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2008 : 8:34:33 PM
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I really appreciate everyone's candid feedback. I agree with the few of you that mentioned that most people will not post their successes, but rather the problems and complaints. The responses here were great in that I had an opportunity to hear about more of those successes.
Without over analyzing, the [very rough] conclusions I am drawing are:
- There is higher dissatisfaction among early adopters that have been through quality control and customer service problems at SH.
- There were QA issues at SH, but things seem to be improving. Early adopters who purchased what should be production equipment may have received what would be considered beta (maybe even alpha) equipment by most standards (specifically - regular mentions of the paddle problem and buggy firmware).
- Very mixed customer service experiences, especially related to replacements and upgrades.
- SH does not do a good job of embracing their power users or developer community and needs to work on accountability for known issues (a recipe for failure, but, again, hopefully they are turning a corner)
Remaining concerns:
- Based on the rough counts in these posts (purchased vs. replacements), the average equipment failure rate among all of you is 10%. This is unacceptable for equipment at these price points, but hopefully improvement is on the way.
- Prices were lower at one time, yet SH has been steadily increasing while removing some "nice to haves", like extra clear buttons.
- Remaining QA issues that create nuances in the equipment, such as the color or brightness of LEDs not matching.
- Only 1 manufacturer controlling the INSTEON market
Here's what I am going to do. I will give it a go. I have a 2400 sq. ft. town home with 3 floors (but only a home office in the bottom floor). I'll start with the top floor and plan to have everything on SwitchLincs, with a couple KPLs to create master bedroom scenes and hall lighting pathways. If that goes well, I will quickly do the rest of the home. I plan to do all of this within the 30 day return timeframe.
In the spirit of giving back to the forum here and because of the time you gave me, I will post a play-by-play on how things are going (with photos) and what I'm running into. While I hope this INSTEON install will be a raging success, the reality is that this will either work or it won't. While I have some cool ideas, my wife will not be a happy camper if light switches stop working or buttons start lighting up the wrong rooms unexpectedly. Unlike my bachelor days, I will not have the luxury of taking a couple weeks to tweak and troubleshoot.
Thanks, again, and stay tuned... |
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mtippen
Junior Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2008 : 10:29:36 PM
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| I'll add to my earlier comments that my wife likes the system. |
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Just Another Joe
Senior Member
Canada
219 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2008 : 10:40:36 PM
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Kevin, thanks for starting this thread. It's rare to see a new poster initiate a thread which provokes such a large and detailed response. AND, it has brought out a lot of the good and positive points as well as many of the well-deserved negatives of Insteon. In short, it's been an enjoyable read!
I for one am looking forward to your blow-by-blow (with-pictures) report, and I wish you every success. When you have troubles, you will find help here.
I went back and re-read your original post, but could find no mention of previous X-10 experience (which is common to many transitioning to Insteon). You will find that troubleshooting noise and signal-sucker issues is very much the same as with X-10.
Might I suggest that in order to get this project up and running in 30 days, you will definitely want some form of network management, which wasn't addressed in your original post. If you intend to use a PC running 24/365, PowerHome would be a good choice.
For a stand-alone solution, you really do need an ISY-26 or ISY-99i. ISY is available from SmartHome or directly from UDI with the same 30-day money back policy. For a whole house installation such as you are about to embark on, it is hands-down the best money you'll spend on this project.
Have fun, and keep us posted! 
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Me? I'm just another Joe.
Symmetry, synergy, synchronicity, serendipity.
Why be politically correct, when you can be right?
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MikeB
Advanced Member
USA
1753 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2008 : 05:55:49 AM
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quote:
For a stand-alone solution, you really do need an ISY-26 or ISY-99i. ISY is available from SmartHome or directly from UDI with the same 30-day money back policy. For a whole house installation such as you are about to embark on, it is hands-down the best money you'll spend on this project.
Listen to Joe. :) |
Michael D. Boulanger
interfaceGO
www.interfaceGO.com
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Sub-Routine
Advanced Member
USA
1145 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2008 : 06:47:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by KevinGFL
...
Without over analyzing, ...
Here's what I am going to do. I will give it a go. I have a 2400 sq. ft. town home with 3 floors (but only a home office in the bottom floor). I'll start with the top floor and plan to have everything on SwitchLincs, with a couple KPLs to create master bedroom scenes and hall lighting pathways. If that goes well, I will quickly do the rest of the home. I plan to do all of this within the 30 day return timeframe.
...
Thanks, again, and stay tuned...
Now you are scaring me 
I suggest you begin with lights that are much less critical than hallways, bedrooms and bathrooms. I began with a few lamps in the living room and family room. When those worked well I went outside. Having unexpected results on on outside light will probably not diminish the acceptance factor like a glitch in the master bedroom, or especially a bathroom.
I suggest you take your time with the install, it will be much easier to trouble shoot if you add only a few devices at a time.
And I have to agree with the others. The ISY is a great way to manage your Insteon devices.
Rand
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AD8BC
Senior Member
298 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2008 : 06:47:56 AM
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| Ditto. I use the ISY-26 and it is just so much fun to use. Even if you have to do some "trial and error" to get something to work right (a custom program, for example) you actually learn something each time you try. And the folks over at the Universal Devices forum (forum.universal-devices.com) will be glad to help. |
7 KPL, 3 SWL Dimmers, 3 ICON Relay Switches, 1 TGL Relay, 1 TGL Dimmer, 1 ILL Dimmer, 1 APL Relay, 6 LL, 1 ISY!!! and a partridge in a pear tree.<p>
Bill's Home Automation Blog: http://billshomeautomationblog.blogspot.com/ |
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d_l
Average Member
105 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2008 : 07:37:13 AM
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Kevin, some Insteon tips from my experience:
1) Focus on keeping your wife happy with the new installation from the very beginning. If there is any particular lighting sequence or pattern that she would like or that Insteon could improve for her, address that first.
2) Because you are planning a big installation, get the network management equipment/software up and running from the from the very beginning, rather than adding it in midway through the network installation. This will go a long way to insuring the number one suggestion is met.
3) Know your townhome wiring before you begin. Know which circuit breakers control which circuits and if neutral wires are present in all junction boxes. Also try to assess how much room you have in multi-gang junction boxes with the existing wiring to add the Insteon switches. All this info becomes useful when you are actually shutting down circuits for device installation. It minimizes down time and maximizes your installation efficiency AND maximizes suggestion number one.
4) Decide ahead of time if you will need any X10 devices and plan your system accordingly. Some X10 equipment can't be avoided at this time if you want to do certain things, motion sensing for example. There are no Insteon-equivalent devices for certain X10 functionality. Then if you do include any X10 devices, you have to consider whether you will be using both legs of your electrical circuits and choose a bridging device if you do.
5) You might consider doing a quick, final QC check before installing any wire-in device, by temporarily wiring it to an three-prong appliance, replacement cord and a replacement light socket for a powered "bench" test. The extra time involved in doing this QC, will be much less than that spent trying to fix installed devices that are DOA or seem to be DOA due to incomplete connections to neutral bundles.
If I had it to do over I might install Insteon, but maybe not. My Insteon installation developed as an expansion of an X10 installation. The original X10 devices were intended to remotely control the power (through relays) to some computing devices, a NAS and hard drives, relatively inexpensively. The X10 network grew as I realized that other devices, fans and some lights, around the house could be controlled/automated by adding to the existing computer control devices. The X10 network then morphed into Insteon-X10 when Insteon was introduced. BTW, I've had absolutely no troubles when mixing the devices, but I try to keep the circuits segregated.
Subsequent to my initial X10 purchase, there are now network IP relay controllers available that would handle the power control of the NAS and hard drives less expensively and more reliably than the X10 equipment I originally bought. So if I had it to do over, I would now choose those relays and never give X10 a second look. If there was no X10 here, then probably Insteon wouldn't have been given a chance.
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jgraziano
Average Member
129 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2008 : 08:37:58 AM
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Under 'Miscellaneous Considerations', and this is more of a philosophical comment, don't over automate.
I have seen people install a SwitchLinc (along with its wiring considerations) and X10 motion sensor in a closet. For $15, you can go to Home Depot and get a two-wire motion sensing switch with adjustable time delay and light-sensing adjustment to do the same thing. If you have to schedule the closet light, or operate it remotely alone or as part of a group, that is a different story. I think most bathrooms fall into the same category.
That's one of the reasons my system is pretty small. It does what I need it to do. I use cheaper, less complex alternatives where I can. That makes the Insteon part more fun.
For a standalone controller, the ISY cannot be beat. |
Jim |
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AD8BC
Senior Member
298 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2008 : 10:00:22 AM
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Yeah Jim, I'm with you. My bathrooms are still manual switches (albeit really nice Lutron dimmers, if I have to use the john in the middle of the night I don't want to burn my retinas out but I still like to aim well). Attic light and pantry are also manual, as is my workbench light. Bathroom fans are Intermatic four button timers. I still can't find a real good application for the Insteon enabled smart Broan bathroom fan system that Smarthome sells.
I am still torn on what to do about the master bedroom closet. My wife leaves the light on in there all day but the switch is on the outside of the closet which precludes the use of a motion-sensing switch. I'm thinking of maybe using an Insteon switchlinc relay with an X10 motion sensor... Or maybe just the same timer I use on the bathroom fans.
So yeah, don't over automate. Although it would be really cool to turn on your closet light from work, it's not worth the money. |
7 KPL, 3 SWL Dimmers, 3 ICON Relay Switches, 1 TGL Relay, 1 TGL Dimmer, 1 ILL Dimmer, 1 APL Relay, 6 LL, 1 ISY!!! and a partridge in a pear tree.<p>
Bill's Home Automation Blog: http://billshomeautomationblog.blogspot.com/ |
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sloop
Advanced Member
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2008 : 10:22:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AD8BC
So yeah, don't over automate.
important statement - just because something can be done does not mean it makes sense to do it
i would add that if you have to teach someone how to operate a lightswitch, you are overreaching
my philosophy is to make it more convenient for someone to have the lighting they want - not to anticipate what they want
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Insteon - Would You Do It Again? (Your Opinions)
