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kcwdad
Starting Member
USA
7 Posts |
 Posted - 08/19/2007 : 2:09:23 PM
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How many others having this problem?
I've installed appx 30 Insteon Switchlinc v2 Dimmers throughout my house, and have had to replace 10 of them, a 33% failure rate, for the same problem: the paddle works only intermittently.
Everything works fine for months, then it starts requiring two or three paddle presses to respond, then four or five, then more. This has nothing to do with the signals to other units or the Insteon technology: it's simple, the paddle won't consistently trigger the switch.
Each time one turns finicky I go through the gauntlet of various tech support call suggestions: reset with air switch, take off the cover and paddle to ensure plastic nubbins on the paddle's backside aren't worn down and aligned with triggers on switch... It's not a "quick press" problem (in firmware), doesn't matter how fast or slow, whether I hold down or not, or whether I poke a pen directly into the mechanical triggers behind the paddle.
A 33% failure rate could be explained away as bad luck if they all came from one manufacturing batch, but this problem has occured on 7 different batches purchased at various times over 2 years. Pre-rev1, rev 1.X, rev2.X. I have only one (recently installed) rev3, and praying it's stable.
I love the convenience of remotely controlling my lights, but it's now been far outweighed by 10+ hours of sitting on hold with Smarthome to order RMA replacements, turning off power and replacing the switches (a HUGE pain in the butt when you have two-gang and three-gang configurations), shipping back the defective units... And now I dread that I'm on a treadmill of time-consuming Insteon maintenance until either my 2 year warranty expires on all, or I just give up and buy a new system or go back to plain old light switches. I'd bite the bullet and replace the other 20 switches while still under warranty but I'm not convinced the problem doesn't persist on the newest rev3 units.
The first time I reported this issue in 2005, I was told it was a known problem with early (pre?) production units. Since then I've never had any acknowlegement that this is a known issue. I've seen a few threads here indicating the same problem. If it is a known issue, all techs should be aware and be forthcoming. More importantly, we all deserve a clear answer on if and when the problem has been fixed (which version has definitively fixed the problem) or when it is expected to be fixed.
So, how many out there have this problem? And Smarthome: are you aware of this, how widespread is it, and what is the plan for fixing it? |
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BLH
Advanced Member
1696 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2007 : 4:06:43 PM
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| I have a rev 2.0 that I can say the actual microswitchs are dead. I voided the warranty and took it apart. The switches do not make contact when pushed. In my case you could say I have a 100% failure rate. I only have one; as my old home; has no needed neutrals in the switch boxes. |
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digger
Advanced Member
USA
1508 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2007 : 4:28:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kcwdad
How many others having this problem?
I've installed appx 30 Insteon Switchlinc v2 Dimmers throughout my house, and have had to replace 10 of them, a 33% failure rate, for the same problem: the paddle works only intermittently.
Everything works fine for months, then it starts requiring two or three paddle presses to respond, then four or five, then more. This has nothing to do with the signals to other units or the Insteon technology: it's simple, the paddle won't consistently trigger the switch.
Each time one turns finicky I go through the gauntlet of various tech support call suggestions: reset with air switch, take off the cover and paddle to ensure plastic nubbins on the paddle's backside aren't worn down and aligned with triggers on switch... It's not a "quick press" problem (in firmware), doesn't matter how fast or slow, whether I hold down or not, or whether I poke a pen directly into the mechanical triggers behind the paddle.
A 33% failure rate could be explained away as bad luck if they all came from one manufacturing batch, but this problem has occured on 7 different batches purchased at various times over 2 years. Pre-rev1, rev 1.X, rev2.X. I have only one (recently installed) rev3, and praying it's stable.
I love the convenience of remotely controlling my lights, but it's now been far outweighed by 10+ hours of sitting on hold with Smarthome to order RMA replacements, turning off power and replacing the switches (a HUGE pain in the butt when you have two-gang and three-gang configurations), shipping back the defective units... And now I dread that I'm on a treadmill of time-consuming Insteon maintenance until either my 2 year warranty expires on all, or I just give up and buy a new system or go back to plain old light switches. I'd bite the bullet and replace the other 20 switches while still under warranty but I'm not convinced the problem doesn't persist on the newest rev3 units.
The first time I reported this issue in 2005, I was told it was a known problem with early (pre?) production units. Since then I've never had any acknowlegement that this is a known issue. I've seen a few threads here indicating the same problem. If it is a known issue, all techs should be aware and be forthcoming. More importantly, we all deserve a clear answer on if and when the problem has been fixed (which version has definitively fixed the problem) or when it is expected to be fixed.
So, how many out there have this problem? And Smarthome: are you aware of this, how widespread is it, and what is the plan for fixing it?
I have seen the same exact problems. Last I heard SH was beta testing a fix but that was about 3 months ago.
If you are lucky enough that they are replacing them I would just keep swapping them if and when they go bad.
It sucks......... trust me I know. But SH isnt very forthcoming with admitting problems or notifying the status of corrective actions.
Most likely once the warranty expires you will have to replace them on your own since I know of two people besides myself that they refused to replace the dimmers/switches for this problem once the warranty was up (or in some cases while the warranty was in effect since SH says they dont have a fix yet).
Good Luck |
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MikeB
Advanced Member
USA
1753 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2007 : 6:57:01 PM
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I've had 1 with this failure, and a couple that simply had bad paddles (which SmartHome replaced). This is with 60 or so switches after a year or so of use.
I think that SmartHome is aware that there's an issue, but I have no idea what the planned fix is. SmartHome doesn't post officially on this forum much, so if you do want a real answer I'd recommend giving them a call. And post back to let us know. |
Michael D. Boulanger
interfaceGO
www.interfaceGO.com
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cgdobson
Starting Member
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2007 : 7:48:53 PM
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I have over sixty Insteon dimmers and relays.
Every device that is frequently used has failed.
The most common failure is just as you have described.
I am building a house that could use up to three hundred
(300) switches. They will not be Insteon unless
Smarthome comes up with some quick answers and fixes. |
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digger
Advanced Member
USA
1508 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2007 : 8:08:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by cgdobson
I have over sixty Insteon dimmers and relays.
Every device that is frequently used has failed.
The most common failure is just as you have described.
I am building a house that could use up to three hundred
(300) switches. They will not be Insteon unless
Smarthome comes up with some quick answers and fixes.
I had the same issue and the WAF went to negative numbers so I had to rip it out. SH needs to fix the problem as you say and communicate that they have now fixed it. |
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sloop
Advanced Member
USA
574 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2007 : 9:42:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by digger
I have seen the same exact problems. Last I heard SH was beta testing a fix but that was about 3 months ago.
If you are lucky enough that they are replacing them I would just keep swapping them if and when they go bad.
It sucks......... trust me I know. But SH isnt very forthcoming with admitting problems or notifying the status of corrective actions.
Most likely once the warranty expires you will have to replace them on your own since I know of two people besides myself that they refused to replace the dimmers/switches for this problem once the warranty was up (or in some cases while the warranty was in effect since SH says they dont have a fix yet).
Good Luck
so they admitted that it is a known problem? every time i have mentioned it, its something they have never heard of
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Xpendable
Advanced Member
USA
606 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2007 : 04:52:11 AM
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| I have also had failures of the microswitches in several of my light switches. It's not that the paddle is no longer contacting the switches, it's that the microswitches themselves have actually physically failed. From oxidation? Bad soder? Who knows. Whatever company that manufacturers them has really piss poor quality control, and shame on Smarthome for using them. |
Use Light Show Master to create animated light shows using your Insteon equipment. See how at http://www.jltsoft.com |
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digger
Advanced Member
USA
1508 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2007 : 05:49:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Xpendable
I have also had failures of the microswitches in several of my light switches. It's not that the paddle is no longer contacting the switches, it's that the microswitches themselves have actually physically failed. From oxidation? Bad soder? Who knows. Whatever company that manufacturers them has really piss poor quality control, and shame on Smarthome for using them.
Cheap components kill a product. But in all fairness to SH a manufacturer can change a component and not tell their customers. If you dont have a very strong QC system it can make it all of the way into production and out the door (and even if you do have a strong QC system things can slip by). That may have happened here. But the time it is taking for them to address it and tell everyone they have addressed it is way to long. |
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ginigma
Average Member
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2007 : 11:42:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by cgdobson
I am building a house that could use up to three hundred
(300) switches. They will not be Insteon unless
Smarthome comes up with some quick answers and fixes.
If it's new construction, go with a hardwired system. Check cocoontech for some threads on that subject. |
Insteon (46 devices) ^ PowerHome (698 links) ^ Logitech Harmony 880 |
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digger
Advanced Member
USA
1508 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2007 : 12:39:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Xpendable
I have also had failures of the microswitches in several of my light switches. It's not that the paddle is no longer contacting the switches, it's that the microswitches themselves have actually physically failed. From oxidation? Bad soder? Who knows. Whatever company that manufacturers them has really piss poor quality control, and shame on Smarthome for using them.
I wish we knew who manufactured the switches. Today at lunch I did little digging and found that these type switches from reputable manufacturers retail for less than $0.50 for a quantity of 1 piece. So you know if SH is buying them by the thousands they are probably paying less than $0.10 each.
Now with the failures they are seeing they are probably getting super cheap ones (maybe less than $0.05 each) or just from a bad manufacturer.
I would have paid an extra dime each switch to not have had the problems I did with Insteon. |
Edited by - digger on 08/21/2007 12:40:36 PM |
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gadgetnut
Starting Member
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2007 : 2:19:11 PM
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| I have 140 Insteon switches in my house and about twenty of them are exhibiting the problems you describe. Typically, the switches more often used locally start to ignore local control input-- you have to push a little harder, then they don't work at all locally. |
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digger
Advanced Member
USA
1508 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2007 : 4:31:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gadgetnut
I have 140 Insteon switches in my house and about twenty of them are exhibiting the problems you describe. Typically, the switches more often used locally start to ignore local control input-- you have to push a little harder, then they don't work at all locally.
Do you happen to know how old the bad ones are? Are they all the same age? Curious if there is a pattern. For me it was the older ones with the first two digits 00 to 03. |
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ginigma
Average Member
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2007 : 6:49:39 PM
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The sad thing is that no one from Smarthome comes here anymore nd provides information.
Come on Laurie or Mike or ???
Is Smarthome doing anything to resolve these issues?
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Insteon (46 devices) ^ PowerHome (698 links) ^ Logitech Harmony 880 |
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digger
Advanced Member
USA
1508 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2007 : 7:26:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ginigma
The sad thing is that no one from Smarthome comes here anymore nd provides information.
Come on Laurie or Mike or ???
Is Smarthome doing anything to resolve these issues?
I am sure that they are working on it. They pretty much put it in writing to me at one point about 3 months ago. If I remember correctly they are beta testing a fix. Maybe it worked maybe it didnt I dont know.
You cant expect the SH staff to say anything in public if the company policy forbids them. Individually they are all good people but they cant risk their jobs to help an individual customer (or a small group). I know that first hand. They were not permitted to do an RMA for me and I eventually gave up on Insteon and ripped it out (WAF went below zero).
We all know that there is a real problem with the switches (or at least some of us do) and that they must be doing something about it. How long it will take I dont know but I think I saw a post late last year about a firmware fix in beta for the keypadlincs. I never saw an announcement that the problem was fixed and people could swap them. So either its still being fixed or its fixed and policy is not to say anything.
I would not hold your breath for a public announcement but I would also not say that they arent doing anything either.
JUST MY OPINION.
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carlh6902
New Member
21 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2007 : 10:02:51 PM
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If switches are failing, one of three causes:
1) Switch simply wears out. Need to spec in a longer life part if this is the case.
2) Switches damaged by excess force. Need to redesign paddle to prevent this, if this is the case.
3) Contacts are oxidizing due to insufficient current (i.e. pull-up is too high a value). A minimum wetting current (see "wetting current" wiki) must be maintained to prevent this. Lowering the pull-up values could easily correct this.
4) Switches are damaged by excessive heat. If this were the case, the dimmer versions would fail at a much higher rate than the relay versions.
Either way, a root-cause failure analysis from the vendor would pinpoint the cause. It should be embarrasing to Smarthome / SmartLabs that this is still an issue at this point in the game.
Carl |
Edited by - carlh6902 on 08/22/2007 10:47:42 PM |
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digger
Advanced Member
USA
1508 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 06:26:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by carlh6902
If switches are failing, one of three causes:
1) Switch simply wears out. Need to spec in a longer life part if this is the case.
2) Switches damaged by excess force. Need to redesign paddle to prevent this, if this is the case.
3) Contacts are oxidizing due to insufficient current (i.e. pull-up is too high a value). A minimum wetting current (see "wetting current" wiki) must be maintained to prevent this. Lowering the pull-up values could easily correct this.
Either way, a root-cause failure analysis from the vendor would pinpoint the cause. It should be embarrasing to Smarthome / SmartLabs that this is still an issue at this point in the game.
Carl
My opinion:
Item 1 is PROBABLY not it since switches are normally rated a minimum 100K cycles. I know that even with 2 kids in the house my switches didnt see more than a few thousand cycles in the months to a little over a year I had them (depending when I bought them none were older than 14 months and many less than 6 months and may have only seen 1K or less cycles etc).
Item 2 is a definite possibility.
Item 3 is also a definite possibility and probably the easiest to correct so you would think its not it since the problem has been known for at least a year (technically several years since the older versions had the problem to from what some people have posted but I dont know that personally as a fact).
As far as SH being embarressed....... I just dont feel that anything embaresses them. The ploicies seem to remove the human emotions of embaressment, compassion etc from the company. No company will have perfect products but the track record at SH speaks for itself (so I will shut up now )
My opinion only. |
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frankjw
Senior Member
USA
231 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 5:07:36 PM
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| I am beginning to think it isn't just Insteon, it is the company as a whole. I had to send back a touchpad door knob that the keypad went bad on in less than a year. I replaced it with a mechanical one and even that one is flaky sometimes. Now I am paying 100$ for these door knob locks and I am expecting them to work 100% of the time for the life of a product. I mean, who wants to get locked out of their house due to a faulty lock? That is the reason I am buying these things in the first place. So I won't get locked out of my house. |
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MikeB
Advanced Member
USA
1753 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 6:23:33 PM
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Do you mean these?
http://www.smarthome.com/5184n.html
I don't believe they are manufactured by SmartHome. |
Michael D. Boulanger
interfaceGO
www.interfaceGO.com
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Jimmy
Junior Member
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 7:34:22 PM
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| I have installed 5 Insteon switches and had the paddle failure on 2, and a 3rd works intermittently. However, the light that gets used the most (kitchen) has worked flawlessly. |
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kcwdad
Starting Member
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 8:48:33 PM
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479 views on this thread in less than 2 days... how many of these are now lost sales for SmartHome? If they decide not to do the "right thing" for their customers, they can only get away with this for a while since a quality problem this prevalent is going to be easy to Google. Ignoring the problem is bad for business, with or without legal class action. Ironically, they adverstise this:
Certifications and Warranty
All SwitchLinc products are safety approved. The factory for SmartLabs Design Products is ISO9002 certified. In order to meet the ISO 9002 standards, the entire factory underwent rigorous inspections of procedures and policies before being certified. The certification received was based on its dedication to high-quality management systems and strict adherence of quality control systems and guidelines. Because of this, Smarthome stands behind the entire SwitchLinc line of products with a full 2-year warranty. |
Edited by - kcwdad on 08/22/2007 9:08:22 PM |
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digger
Advanced Member
USA
1508 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 9:01:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kcwdad
479 views in less than 2 days... how many of these are now lost sales for SmartHome? If they decide not to do the "right thing" for their customers, they can only get away with this for a while since a quality problem this prevalent is going to be easy to Google. Ignoring the problem is bad for business, with or without legal class action. Ironically, they adverstise this:
Certifications and Warranty
All SwitchLinc products are safety approved. The factory for SmartLabs Design Products is ISO9002 certified. In order to meet the ISO 9002 standards, the entire factory underwent rigorous inspections of procedures and policies before being certified. The certification received was based on its dedication to high-quality management systems and strict adherence of quality control systems and guidelines. Because of this, Smarthome stands behind the entire SwitchLinc line of products with a full 2-year warranty.
As everyone knows they put it into writing to me that they were refusing to do teh right thing until "if and when" they had a fix. Did me a lot of good with all of the bad ones I had. But I could buy all of the new ones I wanted LOL. They strung me along for 4 months and at the very end I actually beleived them for a week that they were going to replace them. They were just trying to shut me up and were never going to actually give me an RMA number. My wife got pissed and made me rip out $3k worth of Insteon. I am no longer allowed to spend that kind of money on things like this. |
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kcwdad
Starting Member
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 9:11:30 PM
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WOW. Check out this thread starting Jan 07 -- developers/installers that (after you get through first 10 posts or so) get right to the heart of problem we're all talking about:
http://www.accessha.com/forums/archive/t-1517.html
We're certainly not alone. And certainly SmartHome can't play dumb anymore (and have us believe it, anyway).
Digger: ripping out $3K of product... OUCH! How can this be "ok"? And how much was all your time worth? I'm not an electrician, and not even handy, but at least have done this myself on my own (very limited) free time. I pity anyone paying an electrician to put in these short-lived toys. Like planting annual flowers at $50 a piece plus $50 labor. And really, you can't put a price on loss of "geek cred" with your wife!! |
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MikeB
Advanced Member
USA
1753 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 12:49:37 PM
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I wanted to post up what I've heard regarding this issue.
I spoke with someone at SmartHome, and they've indicated to me that an improved tact switch has recently started rolling into production for at least the 600W SwitchLinc V2 Dimmer, others soon to follow. The person at SmartHome told me that the new tact switch has an average life of 60,000+ presses, while the previous was 10,000 presses.
(EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION: From what I understand, during testing the failed switches were found to have a life of 10,000 presses, I have no idea what they were rated for. Also, from what I understand, the new switches go OVER 60,000 presses.)
Not sure if they will make an official post on here or not, but since a bunch of people are having this issue I wanted to post what I knew.
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Michael D. Boulanger
interfaceGO
www.interfaceGO.com
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Edited by - MikeB on 08/24/2007 04:06:14 AM |
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mteator
Senior Member
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 1:56:17 PM
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| They won't make any official posts here because they've abandoned it. Rather than have a real employee waste time here (mike) they tricked an unpaid volunteer into monitoring the place for anything stupid going on. Haven't you noticed? |
~Michael |
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digger
Advanced Member
USA
1508 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 4:03:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeB
I wanted to post up what I've heard regarding this issue.
I spoke with someone at SmartHome, and they've indicated to me that an improved tact switch has recently started rolling into production for at least the 600W SwitchLinc V2 Dimmer, others soon to follow. The person at SmartHome told me that the new tact switch has an average life of 60,000+ presses, while the previous was 10,000 presses.
Not sure if they will make an official post on here or not, but since a bunch of people are having this issue I wanted to post what I knew.
Did they say if people have boxes of bad ones they will exchange them? I am talking about several people on several forums mentioning that (see the thread in KCWDAD's posting above for what I am referencing). Looks like Herdfan, KenM, PeterW and maybe there were others that have a junk box with a bunchof dead switclincs. Possibly a few people in this thread to. |
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digger
Advanced Member
USA
1508 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 4:19:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kcwdad
WOW. Check out this thread starting Jan 07 -- developers/installers that (after you get through first 10 posts or so) get right to the heart of problem we're all talking about:
http://www.accessha.com/forums/archive/t-1517.html
We're certainly not alone. And certainly SmartHome can't play dumb anymore (and have us believe it, anyway).
Digger: ripping out $3K of product... OUCH! How can this be "ok"? And how much was all your time worth? I'm not an electrician, and not even handy, but at least have done this myself on my own (very limited) free time. I pity anyone paying an electrician to put in these short-lived toys. Like planting annual flowers at $50 a piece plus $50 labor. And really, you can't put a price on loss of "geek cred" with your wife!!
Trust me its not "ok" but I no longer had a choice. How can you expect your wife and kids (and even yourself) to go to turn a light on in a dark room and not have it come on time and time again. Then be originally be told that they have never heard of the problem and it must be that you put the paddle on wrong (even though some were the white ones installed at the factory) or that you put the cover plate on to tight (so you remove the cover plate and it still happens) or that you must have dropped it (yeah a possibility on one switch maybe.....). The excuses for months and months. Then they admit to the problem and say "if and when" we fix it we will exchange them.
I was pissed at my wife but in all honesty I cant blame her after the 10th switch (and then some after that).
I self installed/uninstalled so the there was no labor cost.
Even if SH had said we cant exchange them but we will repair them fine. But the "if and when" in writing pissed us off. SH was actually put in writing that they were surprised that we were disgusted since they were providing us with "excellent service". The only service I got I cant say since children may be reading. |
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digger
Advanced Member
USA
1508 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 4:21:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeB
I wanted to post up what I've heard regarding this issue.
I spoke with someone at SmartHome, and they've indicated to me that an improved tact switch has recently started rolling into production for at least the 600W SwitchLinc V2 Dimmer, others soon to follow. The person at SmartHome told me that the new tact switch has an average life of 60,000+ presses, while the previous was 10,000 presses.
Not sure if they will make an official post on here or not, but since a bunch of people are having this issue I wanted to post what I knew.
Actually Mike we should give you credit for taking the time to ask them and getting an answer. More than anyone else has gotten. |
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digger
Advanced Member
USA
1508 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 5:29:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeB
I wanted to post up what I've heard regarding this issue.
I spoke with someone at SmartHome, and they've indicated to me that an improved tact switch has recently started rolling into production for at least the 600W SwitchLinc V2 Dimmer, others soon to follow. The person at SmartHome told me that the new tact switch has an average life of 60,000+ presses, while the previous was 10,000 presses.
Not sure if they will make an official post on here or not, but since a bunch of people are having this issue I wanted to post what I knew.
10,000 presses. Hmmmm I guess we were busy beavers in our our house pressing switches. I doubt some of mine were pressed 1000 times and they still died. Heck some may have only been a few hundred times.
Does anyone think they were close to 10,000 presses? |
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burntcrispy
Average Member
133 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 6:10:45 PM
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| Maybe half of the presses were done by Smarthome's rigorous quality control? |
Edited by - burntcrispy on 08/23/2007 6:15:14 PM |
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MikeB
Advanced Member
USA
1753 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 6:13:19 PM
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quote:
Did they say if people have boxes of bad ones they will exchange them?
Under warranty? I don't see why not. Out of warranty? I have no idea... I would call SmartHome and see what the deal is.
quote:
10,000 presses. Hmmmm I guess we were busy beavers in our our house pressing switches. I doubt some of mine were pressed 1000 times and they still died. Heck some may have only been a few hundred times.
Does anyone think they were close to 10,000 presses?
I'm just guessing, but I'm sure there are multiple factors at play. I've seen lots of peole post and say they have some of the first Insteon switches out, and they've been fine. My guess is that the amount of force used to press a switch probably comes into play. Maybe some of the tact switches were weaker than others as well. I'm just speculating, but I'm sure there are lots of variables to consider when comparing a switch that has lasted for years and another only for months.
Like I've said in the past, I've only had a couple go bad, and there are a bunch that have been used probably several thousand times (main bathroom, office). |
Michael D. Boulanger
interfaceGO
www.interfaceGO.com
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Edited by - MikeB on 08/23/2007 6:14:01 PM |
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Topic |
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Widespread Insteon mechanical problem?
