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DrGerm
New Member
USA
15 Posts |
 Posted - 07/14/2012 : 06:54:53 AM
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Sorry, just can't figure this out with a little experimentation and research.
I have two light switches that control the same ceiling light. Switch A is part of a panel of switches which I wired with SwitchLincs and all of them seemed to work fine.
Switch B (on the opposite wall) is by itself and I'm having problems getting it to work correctly.
There is a black, red, ground, and white (neutral) wire coming "in" and then a black, ground, and white wire going "out".
I tried connecting ground to ground, red to red, white to white, and BOTH blacks to the black wires on the SwitchLinc, but then the light stays on all the time (switching on and off does nothing).
I then tried connecting both the red and the black (from the same 'going in' group of wires) to the red on the SwitchLinc and the remaining black to the black, but then the Switch does not turn on or do anything.
What am I doing wrong? Sorry, I barely know enough to set these up when it's simple and don't know enough to research any further than I have.
Thanks!!!!
Some more info: Regarding Switch A which was part of a panel of 5 switches. It was a little busy in there, without taking it all down, what I recall that I did was connect the red from Switch A to the red wire on the appropriate SwitchLinc. I "think" that if there was another black wire I connected it to that red as well. Then for each other switch, there was no red wire, only black wires that were obviously what I call "in" wires and I connected those to red wires on switches. I then wired all the "out" black wires to all the black wires on the switches as a group. Wired all the white (neutral) wires as a group and also all the grounds as a group.
Please excuse my 2nd grade attempt to draw what I'm trying to say...
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DrGerm
New Member
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 11:05:11 AM
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I took down the 5 switch panel to look more. Correction to above regarding how I had the black/red wires in switch A. Updated drawing below; I had the red wire from the wall connected to the red wire from the switch and both the black wires connected to all the other black wires. OF NOTE: only the '1st' and 'last' group of wires in the wall in this box have a black wire going "out". Don't know how to describe this better; this is how it was originally wired. The original group of switches had all switches chained together regarding this black wiring (which is why I did it to).
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DrGerm
New Member
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 11:08:50 AM
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OK, didn't know there was [url=http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/2476s.pdf]a more thorough manual[/url] to look at (compared to the single sheets that come in the SwitchLinc boxes).
On page 5, there is a diagram for 3 way switches (which from more research, I'm thinking this is what I'm dealing with here), but I can't understand how that diagram translates to how I connect my wires.
On page 6, there is a nice figure to show how to do a "virtual" 3 way switch; which I re-wired things (as below), however, Switch A works fine but Switch B doesn't even light up/turn on and nothing happens (ie no beep) when pressing/holding the paddle or the set button.
I feel like I'm getting close... any help please?
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oberkc
Advanced Member
USA
1702 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 12:28:01 PM
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Nice pictures.
I am afraid that I would want to see how it WAS wired before giving a lot of advice.
With regards to switch A, is this working now...controlling your ceiling light fixture? If you remove switch B, does it still work? Do you have a volt meter and are comfortable using it? Have you investigated the wiring in the ceiling light fixture?
Ultimately, if the switch A is controlling your fixture properly, then the only thing you need to do is provide hot, neutral, and ground in the box for switch B. This may require reporposing some wires.
My best guess is that switch B is connected to the output (switched hot) from switch A (not correct). This can be confirmed by turning off switch A and seeing if there is still power to switch B. Regarding the cable with the capped red in box A, I would connect black to all the other blacks at that bundle on the left. This will provide unswitched hot to switch B. I would cap the red output of switch A and leave the other red wire capped, as is.
At switch B, the black from the four-conductor cable is now unswitched hot (best guess). Connect this black to switch B black. Connect all whites and grounds together (including switch). Keep red conductor capped as you have it. Switch red should connect to black of 3-wire bundle. I believe this feed fixture. Confirming all this on site with a voltmeter would be good!
Switch B is now the device providing power to the fixture. Cross-link two switches. Both should now control fixture. |
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stusviews
Advanced Member
USA
8432 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 12:36:01 PM
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A white wire connected to a 3-way switch is not a neutral. If only two wires go from the switch to the load, black is not line and white is not neutral.
Your diagram is confusing because there are so many unlabeled items. There also seems to be a lot of devices that are not involved in your difficulty. Unless you know for sure which cable is which, it makes no sense to indicate "in" or "out." Also, it is not necessary to include the ground wire in the drawings.
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DrGerm
New Member
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 2:15:36 PM
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Well, we'll try this again later. I took the second switch (what I'm calling "B") and connected it to the other box setting it up the same as I had "A" working and it doesn't turn on. I don't know if it was broke from the beginning or if I did something (I never saw it working and never saw anything "explode" or anything...).
I pulled out some wires and separated the ones out in the box of 5 switches (Box A) and experimented around and drew a simplified diagram below.
I do have a voltmeter, I assume it's as simple as touching a wire in question and then a ground and seeing the reading.
Regarding how it was wired before. I had taken some pictures of "Box A" before taking out the switches, didn't take any of Box B because I thought it was only one switch and thought it was gonna be simple at the time but I recall it looking similar to the switch on the far right in the pic below.
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stusviews
Advanced Member
USA
8432 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 2:45:16 PM
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It is extremely important to include neutrals. You can omit the ground wires only.
The 3-way switch at the right of the photo has a line (black wire that's jumpered to each switch), a black traveler and a red traveler. Neither one of the traveler's is a line or a load wire. I'm unable to determine positively from the photo if you have a neutral in that box.
Describe (or show) the wiring at the other switch.
BTW, if the load is connected (e.g., bulb screwed in), then you can get a voltage reading between ground and a wire that is not the line. |
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oberkc
Advanced Member
USA
1702 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 2:51:52 PM
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quote:
I took the second switch (what I'm calling "B") and connected it to the other box setting it up the same as I had "A" working and it doesn't turn on. I don't know if it was broke from the beginning or if I did something (I never saw it working and never saw anything "explode" or anything...).
I am not ready to conclude this. I believe it likely that it not turning on is because it is not wired correctly. This will NOT be connected like in A.
Looking at your original diagram, upper right cable of box A goes to box B, I believe. In box B, I believe the two cables are one from box A, the second to the fixture. It is because of this that I think it will be easier to power the fixture from switch B.
My suggestion, in my original response, is to make all blacks unswitched hot. In box A, connect ALL blacks together, including to all switches and ALL cables. In box A, cap the red from switch A and the red in cable to switch B. Your light will not work at this point.
In box B, black in the 4-conductor (including ground) cable is unswitched hot (from box A). The red in the cable is nothing...cap it. White is neutral, of course, from box 1, as is ground.
In box B, connect switch black to unswitched hot. Connect switch white to neutral. Ground is to ground.
In box B, there is a three-conductor (including ground) cable. As stated before, I believe this goes to fixture. Connect white to neutral, ground to ground. Connect black two switch red. After turning power back on, see if the switch is on, and controls the fixture.
If so, cross-link the two fixtures (follow directions in manual). All should be good.
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Edited by - oberkc on 07/14/2012 2:53:49 PM |
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DrGerm
New Member
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 4:09:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by stusviews
It is extremely important to include neutrals. You can omit the ground wires only.
OK
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews
I'm unable to determine positively from the photo if you have a neutral in that box.
In all the boxes I've opened in this house, there is a bundle of white wires stuffed in the back and capped; this one is the same. In all the other installs I've done (all have been 2 way switches thus far), I've connected the white wire from the SwitchLinc to this bundle and all has 'worked'.
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews
Describe (or show) the wiring at the other switch.
This is a pic of the switch I removed. You should be able to see the nubs of the red and two black wires I cut off.
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DrGerm
New Member
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 4:12:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by oberkc
Looking at your original diagram, upper right cable of box A goes to box B, I believe. In box B, I believe the two cables are one from box A, the second to the fixture. It is because of this that I think it will be easier to power the fixture from switch B.
My suggestion, in my original response, is to make all blacks unswitched hot. In box A, connect ALL blacks together, including to all switches and ALL cables. In box A, cap the red from switch A and the red in cable to switch B. Your light will not work at this point.
In box B, black in the 4-conductor (including ground) cable is unswitched hot (from box A). The red in the cable is nothing...cap it. White is neutral, of course, from box 1, as is ground.
In box B, connect switch black to unswitched hot. Connect switch white to neutral. Ground is to ground.
In box B, there is a three-conductor (including ground) cable. As stated before, I believe this goes to fixture. Connect white to neutral, ground to ground. Connect black two switch red. After turning power back on, see if the switch is on, and controls the fixture.
If so, cross-link the two fixtures (follow directions in manual). All should be good.
I think I was able to follow this exactly ... and it works!
Now I'm off to screw in the switches and plates and try it out a few more times to be sure and then set the switch in Box A to control the one in Box B which is apparently the one powering the light.
THANKS
[edit: btw, I think I should read a book on electrical work before I do anything more than a 2 way switch again..] |
Edited by - DrGerm on 07/14/2012 4:21:18 PM |
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oberkc
Advanced Member
USA
1702 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 5:52:01 PM
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Glad you got it working
quote:
[edit: btw, I think I should read a book on electrical work before I do anything more than a 2 way switch again..]
Keep reading forums, too. That is very educational. It has been for me.
Stusview is, of course, correct when he points out that you cannot rely on colors necessarily to determine purpose. That is one good lesson to take from this exercise.
Also, learn the variations of a three-way circuit. Knowing these can help understand how to add insteon switches.
Have fun! |
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Newbie help with wiring second switch
