| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jeffw_00 |
Posted - 06/09/2012 : 3:36:25 PM
Hi - I bought a Synchrolinc to signal when my new Washer (with the really quiet end-of-cycle signal) completed. Through Powerhome it caused a loud pizeoelectric buzzer to beep in the middle of my house.
My wife liked the concept so much I bought one for the dryer, so that I could program PH to signal -only- when needed (washer done, dryer not running, etc), and to remind a 2nd time minutes later.
The first one I bought for the dryer was sending false signals every few hours, even when the dryer was off (like in the middle of the night) and also hung up a couple of times and needed to be unplugged and re-plugged. So I had it replaced.
My second one works great! Except that once a week or so (typically after sitting idle for a few days) it needs to be unplugged and re-plugged (not reset, just replugged). So, in idle pursuit of perfection (after all, the one on the washer works fine), I asked SH for another replacement.
This third one (arrived today) works great when plugged into the same outlet as the PLM. There it operates properly. Plugged into the outlet for the dryer it sends no signals the PLM can detect. (Even though it's on the same circuit leg). Also, when I had it plugged in next to the PLM, and re-programmed the PLM, there were more timeouts than normal (almost as if the new module was degrading communications?).
Meanwhile, the one I'm using for the washer continues to work fine.
I'm almost afraid to ask SH to replace this module -again-, they may decide I'm not a profitable customer and stop selling to me (I'm in Boston area, so we're cross-shipping clear across the country). Maybe I should cut my losses and stick with the second one? After all, not too big a pain to unplug/replug every so often, I guess (sigh).
Anyway, has anyone else had bad luck with these modules?
/j |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| stusviews |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 11:09:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw_00
Hi Stu - in my original post I numbered them in the text to make it easier to write an intelligible post. I actually keep them straight by their xx.yy.zz numbers. :-)
So this week I'm baselining #2. I can't be 100% sure I was methodical last time (hard reset, etc), so I am this time - after the laundry completed yesterday, I did a hard reset, re-link, and re-program. Let's see if it fails again. If it does, I could consider swapping with the one on the washer. I -wasn't- worried about the dryer trashing a good module, until now 8-}, so I might try filtering the dryer with #2 first...
Don't short-change my "home brew" filters 8-} - they've functioned admirably over the years, and the design isn't mine, it's Dave Rye's. The only other 'filter' I have is an old FilterLinc, and I actually don't think it works any better.
thanks
/j
Great. Methodical matters. Here's a way to test the FilterLinc (or any filter): Cross-link and ensure that two Insteon controller/responders work as expected (e.g., SwitchLinc). Connect one device to the load side of the filter. Does it respond to and/or control the cross-linked device? |
| Tfitzpatri8 |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 7:46:46 PM
I don't know if that is particularly relevant to the question of defective vs. incompatible. |
| jeffw_00 |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 6:09:35 PM
By "caliberate" I mean - "determine which loads are actually comparable to a dryer, or a lamp". Manual has nothing about that. |
| Tfitzpatri8 |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 5:59:25 PM
The calibration procedure is in the owner's manual. Nothing complicated required. |
| jeffw_00 |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 4:43:28 PM
Yes, if I knew how to calibrate the loads. I have a module that works with the lamp, and not with the dryer. If I try it on 4 other loads - were they lamp-like (so if they work it tells me nothing) or dryer-like (so if they work it tells me a lot, as does the converse). What you're sort of doing is trying to swap the dryer for an equivalent load, to see if the problem is the module or the dryer. good idea, but I don't know how to find an equivalent load. |
| Tfitzpatri8 |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 4:38:12 PM
How is that a catch-22? If the unit is defective, you would expect it to also fail on other loads. If it works correctly on multiple other loads, then you can safely say you've identified an incompatibility with a particular load.
Isn't that what you want to find out, if this is a compatibility problem or a defective unit? Knowing the answer to that question allows you to act morally and with confidence--either to return an incompatible product or experiment with potential ways to solve a compatibility problem, or to exchange a defective unit. That seems the very core of the issue here. |
| jeffw_00 |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 3:25:41 PM
Well - I have an electric oven I want to watch - or maybe my dishwasher 8-}
It's sort of catch-22 Tom - if I connect it to an easy load and it works - no new data. if I connect it to a tricky load and it fails, also no new data (blame the load). I'm not trying to be difficult - just not sure this adds anything... |
| Tfitzpatri8 |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 3:21:24 PM
Rather than leave the third unit sitting around, you might as well plug it in and start monitoring other loads around the house. You can collect data from both tests at the same time. |
| jeffw_00 |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 2:56:04 PM
Hi Stu - in my original post I numbered them in the text to make it easier to write an intelligible post. I actually keep them straight by their xx.yy.zz numbers. :-)
So this week I'm baselining #2. I can't be 100% sure I was methodical last time (hard reset, etc), so I am this time - after the laundry completed yesterday, I did a hard reset, re-link, and re-program. Let's see if it fails again. If it does, I could consider swapping with the one on the washer. I -wasn't- worried about the dryer trashing a good module, until now 8-}, so I might try filtering the dryer with #2 first...
Don't short-change my "home brew" filters 8-} - they've functioned admirably over the years, and the design isn't mine, it's Dave Rye's. The only other 'filter' I have is an old FilterLinc, and I actually don't think it works any better.
thanks
/j |
| stusviews |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 2:48:30 PM
You don't need #1, #2, and/or even #3. The numbering was only a suggestion to avoid mixing them up when dealing with more that one identical device.
It makes no sense to keep resetting the same device more than once or twice and expecting different results in the same situation. Hypothesizing that it's OK is worth less than the piece of paper an oral promise is written on. The Synchrolinc(s) may really be defective.
One way to know for sure is to try one in place of one that you know functions (i.e., washing machine). Another method is to use a known functioning device (washing machine SynchroLinc) in the new situation (dryer). I can understand your hesitance to employ the second method.
Or try a filter on the dryer, but not a home brewed one in this case. I still suspect something on the powerline that alone is not a problem, but is in combination with the dryer. |
| jeffw_00 |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 2:01:09 PM
Hi Stu - i haven't gone down that road yet, because it's difficult to determine. #1 is gone. #2 works great except for a once-a-week problem. #3 sends signal when connect to a lamp, but not the dryer. I hypothesize (give it the benefit of the doubt) that it works when plugged into the washer. Doesn't change the fact that I can't use it with the dryer. if you look at my plan - I'm baselining #2 and if it fails again, a swap with the washer unit is in the plan, but it's a slow process.
/j |
| stusviews |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 1:31:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by stusviews
0. Most important before going any further: Label the problematic Synchrolincs if you haven't already done so.
1. Factory reset a problem Synchrolinc, any of #1, #2, or #3.
2. Use Powerhome to record the settings of the washing machine Synchrolinc and copy them to the newly reset Synchrolinc.
3. Test the newly programmed Synchrolinc with the washing machine. Darn, this takes t lng.
What is the result?
Does the factory reset SynchroLinc, programmed to the washing machine specifications, function as expected with the washing machine? |
| jeffw_00 |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 10:06:48 AM
Hi Tom - I'm not messing with you. If you think the problem could likely be the load, then by inference you think the problem is probably not bad modules. That's all I was saying. I agree that one explanation is incompatible load, but I think we agree that's not the only possibility, so I posted this thread originally to collect data on the likelihood of a different possibility as (due to my Amazon experience) I had reason to suspect that as well. That didn't work out, but it let me air the plan I had anyway for whatever it's worth.
/j |
| Tfitzpatri8 |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 08:01:46 AM
Now you are just making stuff up. I have no way of knowing if all your modules are within specification or not. I've never seen them, I've never laid hands upon them, I've never bench tested them withor without load, and I've never seen what hardships they have been through. Just like without further testing, you have no way to really know if a module is out of spec or not, all you know is that it doesn't work in one application with one unique load.
My repeated point and concern is that the issues you are experiencing are explainable by an incompatible load, so it merits testing of equipment independent from that particular load before making a judgement. If testing establishes the unit works properly with other loads, then you can shift gears and use that information to seek an appropriate solution. I'm trying to help because it's just becoming too painful to watch you repeatedly slamming into a wall instead of taking a step to the left and walking through the open doorway!
No worries, you did mention the Amazon purchase in another of your recent threads on your SynchroLincs.
|
| jeffw_00 |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 06:55:39 AM
Stu - I've been hard-reseting all along, and using PH to write, and read, the config values so all of that is consistent. Both washer and dryer are in same outlet, and I know my home topology because I mapped it out years ago using appropriate equipment.
I think it all boils down to this: Tom, you believe all my modules were in spec, but there are issues with the load. I look at the cough/sneeze as different failures, and wonder about the alternate explanation - that the load is ok but I've just gotten an unlucky run of modules. Neither of us can know 100% if we're right. I'm willing to consider that you're right which is why I've stopped blind swapping and am now doing experiments. But it is a new product, and that's why I also posted -asking- (not telling) whether others had quality problems (which would add weight to my "run of bad modules" hypothesis).
What I didn't mention (to avoid confusing things) is that before I bought #0, I bought one off Amazon that had several problems, and SH said "oh - that's old firmware - definitely problems with that rev., return it and get a newer one from us". so it -does- happens that SH puts new stuff in the field that isn't totally solid. That why I started this thread - to see if I could get some input from the community one way or the other.
As mentioned, I'm going to take my 2 most solid modules and see if I can mitigate the remaining failures, or at least characterize them better. It will take some time since the failure takes days to occur. I'll let you know what happens.
/j |
| Tfitzpatri8 |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 02:24:41 AM
Stusviews' suggestion is excellent.
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw_00
Hi Tom - I read your thread and thought you were trying to be helpful, and then I read it again, and realized the premise is "There's no problem with Smarthome quality, your load is clearly an outlier".
Yes, I am trying to help you. I pointed out that I saw different relevant facts in the data you presented and that the evidence doesn't appear to support your conclusions. I also pointed out that devices being incompatible is different from devices being defective.
As a reasonable person, I trust you agree: if a device is defective, then an exchange is warranted; if a device is incompatible, and you cannot or do not want to find a way to make it compatible via filters or reorienting devices or wiring, then a return is reasonable and appropriate. The best way to tell the difference is to test using other devices on clean circuits or to swap with a known working unit (such as you have on the washer) to see if the problem follows the load or the SynchroLinc.
quote:
But it's much less "electronic" than the TVs and receivers that this device was meant to work with, those are loaded with circuit boards and switching power supply, digital timer and display, and more, some of which continues to operate even when the unit isn't on. ;-}
It isn't 'how much electronic' that is the determining factor, it is whether or not a device is radiating interference and the degree to which said interference leaks out the cabinet to adjacent devices or out the power cord. I understand It is possible to create some very nasty electronic emissions with a relatively simple circuit or by neglecting to ground something or reinstall proper shielding after servicing. Electronic equipment like that in the dryer can also leak progrssively more interference over time as built-in filtering capacitors break down with age.
quote:
Still. you inspired me to do a little more experimenting. for #3, if i plug it in next to the washer and use a lamp for the load, it DOES send a signal back to the PLM. However, if I then plug in the dryer instead, no signal, even though the LED changes color. Adding a heavy-duty ferrite-core filter between the module and the dryer does not change things, so I don't know how to "mitigate" #3's shortcomings.
You call it a shortcoming, I call it an incompatibility with a signal-sucking load. Is your heavy-duty gadget designed to remedy signal-sucking loads or just noise-producing loads?
quote:
Still, this experiment does show that the Dryer plays a role, but the Dryer is well within Smarthome's current/voltage specs,
That's a necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition.
quote:
and #2 proves that (occasional lockups notwithstanding) a Synchrolinc -can- operate normally with this dryer as a load
That conclusion isn't supported by the data. There can be minor variations in signal stength from unit to unit based on minor variations in electronic source components used in the manufacturing process. These minor variations are normally only noticed if a device is near a source of interference or actually attached to it, as appears to be the case here. From your description, you haven't had any unit work properly and consistently with this dryer load, not even the unit which is working properly and consistently on an adjacent load.
Again, my theory is that the load is producing some kind of interference that is causing the SynchroLinc microprocessor to malfunction or lock up. If given enough testing time, I suspect we could eventually cause the same symptoms in all SynchroLincs. That's only a theory, but it is based on your described experience and circumstance and my own experience with the technology involved.
quote:
Just because #3 works with a lamp doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with it.
There's something we agree upon. No, to make an informed judgement you would want to test with a couple of different loads as well.
quote:
(I suppose with time I could line up a dozen loads, test on each one, and show that #2 handles a wider range of loads than #3. You would say #3 is of high quality if it worked with any loads, I would disagree. So let's skip the effort :-)).
That seems pretty unreasonable to me, and the straw-man position you create is an inaccurate description of what I have written.
quote:
Point is, each of the 3 modules displayed a very different set of symptoms.
Different symptoms yes. Like a cough, a sneeze and a fever, they can all be symptoms of the same underlying incompatibility.
quote:
it just seems like each module has a different problem, which is why i posted see if others are experiencing the same thing.
A cautious, fact-finding post would have been a reasonable approach. I'm sorry you didn't do that instead of suggesting that an observed incompatibility with one unusual load equated to a quality problem.
quote:
I'm within my rights to suggest another swap.
That's between you and Smarthome. I'm just offering advice based on my own successful use of the same gear. You can follow or ignore it as you see fit.
quote:
Finally, I don't see where, anywhere in my plan, I'm doing the same thing and expecting different results, other than trying to explain myself to you 8-}.
Making another exchange before you perform more complete testing seems like a recipe for further dissatisfaction on your part. Ask yourself this--if you cannot get this dryer to work with three SynchroLincs, what would be required to convince you that the incompatibility is between your specific dryer load and the SynchroLinc design? There's no need to explain yourself to me. |
| stusviews |
Posted - 06/10/2012 : 10:45:44 PM
SH telephone assistance can vary. Consider that sometimes you may get a highly capable new hire who is not yet thoroughly familiar with the entire Insteon product list.
There exists standards that manufacturers of line powered devices must adhere to including that the device must accept interference produced by other devices (and still operate). It follows that some devices produce interference. Although the level of allowable interference has diminished over the years, it's still enough to interfere with devices that depend on the powerline to communicate.
An analogy is incompatible devices. Each functions separately, but they don't get along. That occurs because the manufacturer of product A didn't test it with every product B it could be used with. For example, did the baby monitor company test their product with each and every extant intercom that may already be installed (e.g., doorbell intercom). Or is it because the hard-wired intercom manufacturer neglected to test each and every baby monitor? Most devices interfere a lot less than allowed. Some, especially less costly devices do not. That's part of why they cost less. Disclaimer: some low cost devices are polite.
I believe that's what tfitzpatri8 is saying and why we have filters, power conditioners, and other line smoothing devices.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
0. Most important before going any further: Label the problematic Synchrolincs if you haven't already done so.
1. Factory reset a problem Synchrolinc, any of #1, #2, or #3.
2. Use Powerhome to record the settings of the washing machine Synchrolinc and copy them to the newly reset Synchrolinc.
3. Test the newly programmed Synchrolinc with the washing machine. Darn, this takes t lng.
What is the result?
Oh, are the washer and dry plugged into the same outlet? If not, are they on the same circuit? If so, how have you tested that. |
| jeffw_00 |
Posted - 06/10/2012 : 6:53:06 PM
The frustrating thing, to be quite honest, is that I'd like to have this conversation with -SH- instead of the forum (no offense, but they should know the product better, we're all guessing a bit). Unfortunately (and this isn't a ding on SH, it's increasingly common) their phone reps are not very expert. The one I talked to for the last swap had (seriously, honestly) never heard of a Synchrolinc, I had to spell it. The days of talking to someone who might, through their breadth of experience, set my expectations properly ("we see people use these on dryers all the time", or "you know, probably about 5% of our returns are on stuff with motors, not really what it was designed for"), seem to be behind us. (Sorry, I'm spoiled, I remember when I used to call X-10 tech support and get David Rye - really!).
/j |
| jeffw_00 |
Posted - 06/10/2012 : 5:35:46 PM
Hi Tom - I read your thread and thought you were trying to be helpful, and then I read it again, and realized the premise is "There's no problem with Smarthome quality, your load is clearly an outlier". Which, of course, was exactly the answer I was looking for when I came to this forum looking for help. :-) The Dryer is a older, single speed, low-end Maytag with no digital display, energy-saving features, or other goodies. It's pretty simple although the control board is probably electronic since it uses LEDs to display status. But it's much less "electronic" than the TVs and receivers that this device was meant to work with, those are loaded with circuit boards and switching power supply, digital timer and display, and more, some of which continues to operate even when the unit isn't on. ;-}
Still. you inspired me to do a little more experimenting. for #3, if i plug it in next to the washer and use a lamp for the load, it DOES send a signal back to the PLM. However, if I then plug in the dryer instead, no signal, even though the LED changes color. Adding a heavy-duty ferrite-core filter between the module and the dryer does not change things, so I don't know how to "mitigate" #3's shortcomings.
Still, this experiment does show that the Dryer plays a role, but the Dryer is well within Smarthome's current/voltage specs, and #2 proves that (occasional lockups notwithstanding) a Synchrolinc -can- operate normally with this dryer as a load. Just because #3 works with a lamp doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with it. (I suppose with time I could line up a dozen loads, test on each one, and show that #2 handles a wider range of loads than #3. You would say #3 is of high quality if it worked with any loads, I would disagree. So let's skip the effort :-)).
Point is, each of the 3 modules displayed a very different set of symptoms. If even two had the same set, I'd think maybe it was a bad load, but currently it just seems like each module has a different problem, which is why i posted see if others are experiencing the same thing.
I'm going to see if I can "mitigate" #2 as noted in my plan, even though (as some have suggested) I'm within my rights to suggest another swap. I do this because I don't want to burden SH unnecessarily.
Finally, I don't see where, anywhere in my plan, I'm doing the same thing and expecting different results, other than trying to explain myself to you 8-}.
best
/j
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| Tfitzpatri8 |
Posted - 06/10/2012 : 4:54:26 PM
Step back for a minute and take a fresh look. The common denominator here is the load. Lock-ups and unintended operations are both signs that something is influencing and interfering with microprocessor operations. Based on what you wrote in the other SynchroLinc threads you've started recently, I get the impression the load isn't just a motor and mechanical timer, but also features circuit boards and switching power supply, digital timer and display, perhaps variable speed control and more, some of which continues to operate even when the dryer drum isn't turning. I'm suspicious that some unintended transmissions from that energy-saving dryer load are interfering with the operations or locking up the SynchroLinc.
I certainly agree, you shouldn't be responsible for field-service testing. On the other hand, SmartLabs probably shouldn't be responsible for pre-testing gear with every bit of electro-mechanical gear on the planet looking for potential incompatibilities before selling something either. It's an imperfect world, and I suspect it is recognition that some gear will be incompatible that drives Smarthome's generous return and exchange policies.
Personally, before labeling something as poor quality or defective, I would be retesting with other loads. Did you swap units 1, 2 or 3 with the SynchroLinc attached to the washing machine, or with different loads elsewhere in the house? If they operate well with other gear, that may relieve your concerns about defects and allow you to focus on how to mitigate incompatibilities.
What I don't recommend is continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results. |
| jeffw_00 |
Posted - 06/10/2012 : 4:26:41 PM
Yes Stu - that's in the plan, I'm trying to be methodical this time... |
| stusviews |
Posted - 06/10/2012 : 4:11:58 PM
Simple test - filter the dryer. |
| jeffw_00 |
Posted - 06/10/2012 : 3:23:20 PM
Thanks jdale - but i deemed it defective because I got
a) repeated false -on- signals when the dryer was completely off - even after raising the threshold, AND
b) repeated false -off- signals when the dryer was running.
I'm tired of the field-service approach - I want to see if there's an issue first 8-}
thanks
/j |
| jdale |
Posted - 06/10/2012 : 3:16:46 PM
I got false On signals with mine until I raised the threshold. It's possible #1 could have been made to work. No guarantees though.
Personally I would try to replace it again. If Smarthome tells you it's time to give up that's different... although swapping seems like an interesting test, IF it won't delay things past the point where a return is possible.
|
| jeffw_00 |
Posted - 06/10/2012 : 2:35:55 PM
Actually Tom - it doesn't seem that simple.
#1 generated false on and off signals with surprising frequency
#2 appears to be perfect but locks up once a week
#3 - it's signals are received only when it's right next to the PLM, (no signal at all received when located at the desired outlet). Also plugging it in next to the PLM interferes with PLM communication.
(and don't forget #0, plugged in right next to #2 at the desired location, and not failing in -any- way (the one on the washer). Sort of a "control".
I believe #1 and #3 are defective. I concede that #2 may not be defective.
Still, I can't seems to reconcile your comment with the facts above - perhaps I'm missing something?
I mentioned Plan (A) in a prior post, but I think I have a better one
1) Return the defective #3, leave #2 in place and see if it locks up again (baseline).
2) If it does, swap #0 and #2 and see if the lockup follows the module.
3) If it does, replace #2 (again (sigh))
4) If the lockup stays on the dryer, put a filter downstream of the module on the dryer line and see if that eliminates the lockup.
/j |
| Tfitzpatri8 |
Posted - 06/10/2012 : 2:15:23 PM
You've tried exchanging SynchroLincs and you are still finding them to be incompatible with your load.
This is pretty simple. If I were having the problem, I would either a) attempt different filtering to isolate the problem load, or b) let them know you have an incompatible load and return the SynchroLinc. |
| jeffw_00 |
Posted - 06/10/2012 : 06:35:42 AM
Yeah - my plan (A) is to return the one I just got, and see if the one that's otherwise fine stops locking up if I put a filter between it and the dryer. I'd argue that they should build the module better, but we'll see.
If that doesn't fix it - then (sigh) - another swap, or ?????
As for my use of "leg" you knew what i meant 8-}
thanks guys
/j |
| Tfitzpatri8 |
Posted - 06/09/2012 : 7:00:20 PM
I went back and reviewed all three different threads you've posted on getting your SynchroLincs running. I agree with Stu, it looks like that load is kicking something back on your power lines that is locking up the SL's electronics. No amount of exchanging SynchroLinc units is going to solve a noise problem. That's going to require a strategically-placed filter. |
| stusviews |
Posted - 06/09/2012 : 6:40:29 PM
If filtering the dryer solves the problem, then the culprit is the dryer. Also, mapping out all the outlets in a home is a good idea. It really helps troubleshooting and can uncover unusual wiring.
BTW, the term 'leg' without a modifier is nondescript. There's a switch leg, circuit leg, supply leg, etc.  |
| jeffw_00 |
Posted - 06/09/2012 : 4:34:18 PM
Thanks Stu - but the other Synchrolinc (for the washer) plugged into the same outlet runs fine. Also - I know which outlet is on which leg because I long ago mapped out my entire house back when I was running X-10. It's possible that a filter between the module and the dryer will fix the lockup problem, (I use a home-made model with 1/2 of an lamp cord wrapped around a ferrite core - as recommended to me by Dave Rye himself 8-})
but does that mean the dryer or the module is at fault? |
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